Off the record | july 5, 2024 - joe aragona (r) | otr overtime | season 54 | episode 1

All right. Welcome back to our overtim session with the representative. And I was interrupting you on a great question. So let's go back to that. Is that all right with you? Sure. Yeah.

So, you know, before the Senate adjourned late, they passed a historic couple pieces of legislatio that could potentially open up the governor's office and legislature to FOIA.

We'r currently only one of two states that do not allow you to request public records from either the governor or the state legislature. And when I asked, you know, what was your take

on that opinion right before we break you said it's dead on arrival, which was very interesting to me considering that this has been a decade plus endeavor that has historically stopped

in the Senate, has always usually gotte a green light in the House. Why? Why dead on arrival? My opinion is dead on arrival because the governor said that she would do this without

legislative action in her first campaign. So almost six years ago. Who really controls the House? I mean, there's Democratic leadership, but they are extremely close to the governor and

they often do what she wills. They're not always close to the governor. Well. I was going to say to her explanation, because, yes, we've asked that question before to you know,

it's a campaign promise of hers when she first ran. And, you know, almost a decade later, we're no closer to it. Right. Her explanation being, though, is that she can open herself

that wher where would then the urgency be to open up the legislature? Because the legislature then has no you know, it's basically it sounds like a tit for tat kind of thing. If you

open up the legislature. I will open up the governorship. Why don't we just do them together in a bill package? So let me understand her answer. She said, I promise I'm going to do

this when I'm governor and then she becomes governor and says, well, other people aren't doing it. Does that sound right to you? No. Look, I'll vote for the package. I just

don't think it's going to come up. You don't think that. Okay. Because you don't think that Democrats are going to call it to the floor and get that win potentially? But

I don't think the governor I don't thin the governor wants to come up. So I don't think it's coming up. That's my opinion. The last time out, the Hous voted 100

votes on this package. And you got one more right here that wasn't around at that point. But I just don't I don't see it happening. So we'll see. What is your qualms with

the package itself that I know you've talked about that you don't think Governor Gretchen Whitmer wants it or wants it to be brought up for a vote? Do you have specific issues

with the package? No. Like I said, I'll vote for it. I will vote for this package. But it's not up to me whethe it comes up on the floor. Right. But I mean, there's been a

number of Republicans who've sounded alarms about the fact that there is a shield, for instance, where you can't FOIA any of the governors constituents while the whole state is her

constituency, unless there are a lobbyist. Communications fro the governors constituents. Yes. but ostensibly, that could mean that she could be communicating with big business leaders. We

have no idea behind the scenes that that doesn't concern you? It sounds like then? Look, if we need to do work o the package, I'm fine with it. I think FOIA is a good thing. I

think we should sunlight helps cure a lot of things. I think we should pass it. You know, again, if we nee to do work on it, that's fine. But we're also looking at a legislator

that turned dow a lot of Republican amendments. For instance, anybody putting an appropriatio and you had to have a sponsor. If we're going to appropriate money to a private craft, if

we're going to if we're going to appropriate money to a business for some type of economic development, they have to give us a spending plan. All of this was shot down. So I. I

don't see those things. Things seem a lot more simple to me than than this FOIA package. And those things, didn't even make it in. Why is FOIA going to make it in? Is there a race

going on in the House caucus for a new speaker? Well, nobody's declared yet. I think it's going to be hard to beat Matt Hall. I you know, I think Mat is going to be the next

speaker. He held us together. He held our caucus together with with shore funding, which the governor really, really wanted. And there wasn't on Republican vote on the budget. And

that's because, I mean, they did not sit down and negotiate with us at all. Those are two big wins. And I think you're going to have to prove how you could do better than what he

did. So you would not support Mr. Kuntz for speaker if if the R's take control. I'm pretty sure he sat in this chair and he didn't say he was running. So I'm going to

support Matt Hall. I look at a lot of peopl sitting that year and say stuff. Okay? I'll in for Matt Hall. Okay. Regardless if Kuntz is in, you're still with Mr. Hall? I'm with

Matt Hall at this point. At the beginning of this interview, you had cited your opposition to more than $400 million in earmarks as part of your no vote for this budget. What would

Republicans do different if they controlled the House? I think w would have a lot less earmarks. I think we wouldn't have water parks. I mean, I think the last budget had something like

seve or eight water parks or pools. But you wouldn' support a ban on earmarks then? I think there's things technically the $5 million that Tim was talking about at the very

beginning of the segment that was going towards housing in Mount Clemens, I think that would technically be an earmark. From a credit donor, i I'm not mistaken, for a project I'm

sorry if I'm not mistaken for a project that's for a company ru by a major Democratic donor now. Yeah. And I know him personally. I know Jim very well. He's he's a

businessman. He's very smart. He's he's lobbie the legislature to get that in. He he did it right. Unlike Fay Beydoun, who got her $20 million in kind of in secret between the

governor and the speaker. So if you're a businessman you lobby the legislature and donate prolifically, that is the correct way to obtain an earmark. You can you can lobby. You can

show people why this is a good project. That's what happened. Apples and bananas to everybody doing who got 20 million. And and it took the Detroit News to even figure we didn't

even have internal controls in in state government or in the legislature to figure out what was going on. It was the Detroit News who broke that there was a $4,500 coffeemake and that she

was paying herself $402,000 between her and her secretary over three months. You want to know what you need to do? Spending plan. That's it right there. Since you just opened that up,

just one more about this boondoggle bounty, what with the exception, I think public notice laws, the legislature in the state have shied away from defining what a news organization is. So

what is your definition of journalist in in that context? A watchdog. We need more of them. I mean, many more on the ground. Who works for for whom? Just just anyone who does a web post

that, you know, calls out some questionable spending. A journalist is a watchdog who works for a news agency who tries to discover stories to do digs deep as deep as they can to figure ou

what the truth of the matter is. That's why. Do you think Michigan taxpayers want to be spending money, whether, however, vehicle it gets there to reporters? I think if they saw that

the were about to lose $19 million to somebody who, again, took a first class trip to Europe, they cost $11,000 and they said you're either not going to get this back or since

government didn't find it, but a reporter did. We're going to incentivize them and we're going to give them a boundary, giving them 10% of what we save, what we clawed back.

Yeah, I think taxpayers would be all for it. Would it be someone with a social media page? Are you looking as you start? Yeah I'm trying to figure out my business plan? Yeah,

that's fine. Would you have to submit the claim to the State to get that money? That's part of what we're working on right now. So I have it drafted. I don't have it

introduced yet but that's part of the details. And in my my final question to that would be how do you differentiate a good use of thes grant dollars from wasteful use? Like, where does

tha where does black become white? I mean, again, $4,500 for a coffee maker. That's clearly the improper use. Sure. But what about taxes? I'm talking about wha about more

ambiguous situations? Okay. Like what? How do we our what situation are you coming up with? You know. You could buy a $30 pad instead of a $5 pen from OfficeMax with state grant dollars?

Yeah. Would that be a waste? Again, this is about the fact that this was done in secret. The legislator did not know about this. They did not know about this $20 million. That's one

situation though, I'm talking about in the abstract, though. There's going to be there would be dozens or maybe even hundreds o situations that might come up. Have that many come

up? And I' still trying to figure out how. Looking far into the future. I'm still trying to figure out why this $20 million is even appropriate in the first place. Why did we

appropriate $20 million in secret in the dead of night and all of a sudden it popped into the budget? But the system worked. Within the legislation is there a system for defining what is and

is not wasteful spending? That that's all I'm curious. Yeah, that's some of the details we're working on right now. Like I said, I don't have an introduced. I do

have it drafted. So what has surprised you most about being in this town? Well, as you know, I staffe for a couple of years so there. What was that for? Remind the people. Tony Forlini,

he's a good family friend of mine he he was a tough boss. But I hope everybody has as tough boss as him because that's how you grow. So he was a really good guy. He's actually

our county clerk back in Macomb County now. So what surprised me most, you know, again, kind of going back to the decorum of the House I remember when I was staffing there was a lot more

respect given between both parties. I hope I can restore that a bit. There's been times where our caucus hasn' been allowed to give speeches. Some of the leadership on the other

side has tried to offer excuses that I know wasn't true because, again, I staffed a little over ten years ago. I've seen the situations where there was that mutual respect. There

has to be that again. Otherwise, Lansing's going to be a tough town to to work in. If the governor was here, what would you say to her? I'd ask her, why was there $20 million that

went to one of your political friends? Because nobody's asked her that yet. Who's her political friend? Fay Beydoun. She was on the MEDC board. She was supposed to be overlooking

this $20 million. So she oversaw it. The budget passed. Nobody realized the 20 million was in. Then Fay started a company, and then she got that $2 million as she sat on MEDC board that she

was supposed to be overseeing. If these earmarks are... And nobody's asked her why. It is earmarks are determined, inappropriate. And behind closed doors, those pictures are made

outside of public view. Yeah, let's get them out in the public. How do you know that the that she didn't lobby legislators the same way Jim George has for his $5 million grant? How

do I know she didn't lobb them just behind closed doors? Yeah, I you know, that's a good question. It wasn't in any of the budgets for my understanding. Nothing that I could

find any way leading up to... The same is tru of most earmarks in the budget. Almost all. No, I believe Jim's was actually in there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was

actually in previous versions of the budget. If I could just return to FOIA very quickly, you know, we go back and we talk about how Governor Gretchen Whitmer promised to open up her

office. Hasn't yet. We've been in this back and forth struggle. It can't be overlooked, though, that this is a lack of transparency culture that Michigan has had for a very

long time. There was prior to Governor Gretchen Whitmer and, you know, this Democratic trifecta there was a Republican trifecta in the House, Senate. And, do Republicans bear any

responsibilit for not also having, you know, worked proactively to change FOIA laws? Yeah, it doesn't matter i you're Republican or Democrat. You know we have to have zero

tolerance for any type of corruption or implied corruption or anything that's that's kind of kept in secret. So, you know what I'd even say? Yes, yes, Republicans, Democrats.

But let's change it now. Now, now is the present. Let's change. Representative. What do you want to be when you grow up? Still haven't figured that out yet. Still having fun,

being a legislator. You don't have a long term plan? Well, I can do this for about another decade now. So. But you voted against term limits or you voted for term limits? I wasn't

in the House during that. No, no, no. Well, one was on the ballot. Oh personally? Yeah, I voted for it. You voted for term limits, an now you're benefitting from it. Extending term

limits. Extending term limits. Thank you. Okay. But the original term limit law, the 92 law, Were you around then? Yes, I was 4 years old, so I did not vote for that. Your Honor, scratch the

question, Representative. Thanks for doing our program. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Thanks to the panel. Everybody have a safe weekend, okay? Bye bye.