The bookmark | comanches, captives, and germans | season 2023 | episode 16

(gentle bright music) - Hello and welcome to "The Bookmark." I'm Christine Brown, your host. Today my guests are Daniel Gelo and Christopher Wickham, authors of

"Comanches, Captives, and Germans: Wilhelm Friedrich's Drawings from the Texas Frontier." Thank you both so much for being here today. - Pleasure. - Happy to be with you. - I

wanna start by asking you to just introduce this book to us, what it's about, and how did it come to be? - Well, going back to February of 2020, Chris and I were giving a talk at the

Texas State Historical Association meetings about our previous book with Texas A&M, which was called "Comanches and Germans on the Texas Frontier." And also on the panel that

day was a colleague of ours, named Hoppy Hopkins. Hoppy's a historical preservationist from Fredericksburg, Texas. And Hoppy's very knowledgeable about the Germans in the

Fredericksburg area and also the Comanches. Like me, Hoppy was adopted by a Comanche family many, many years ago. So we share that. And we had a nice talk at the meetings. And then

afterwards there were a number of people in the audience that stayed behind and we chatted with them. And one of these was a gentleman named Timothy Koock, and Timothy had an interesting

background. His uncle was John Henry Faulk, the noted folklorist. His brother, Guich Koock, was one of the partners at Luckenbach, Texas. And so, and Timothy was also from Fredericksburg, so

he was immersed in Texana, you might say. And so he talked about our research and we went on our way. And about 10 months later, in December of 2020, Hoppy got a message from Timothy, which

said, "I have a friend that has these two old drawings, we think they're very old, and they seem to be about Fredericksburg history. And we thought you guys would know what's

going on in the drawing." So Hoppy showed them to me and immediately we realized that these were pictures of a large number of German settlers interacting with a large number of

Comanche Indians. And some important things were going on. And we immediately called Chris, as our resident Germanist, part of our research team who specializes in German language and

culture. And we started on a long detective story. Who made the pictures and what were they showing? When did they happen, these events? And where did they take place? And not soon after,

because the trail was leading us toward Boerne, Texas as part of the story, we enlisted the help of Bryden Moon, our fourth author, who is an avocational historian but very knowledgeable

about Boerne history. So the four of us got together and pursued this detective story. - Can you talk about the images and what these are, how they came, where were they from? How did you

find them? - Well, there are three images that we discuss. One of them has to do with it's own topic, which is a German immigrant wagon train, ox drawn wagons on a trail heading for a

pass with a number of Indian characters observing it and in various dynamic active positions. Some riding horse, some observing from the hilltop, and so on. But the other two drawings

represent the same general scene, at least it appears that way. And that general scene has, as Dan described, a lot of Germans, a lot of Comanches, a lot of animals, horses milling around.

And as the central action is a, what appears to be a transfer of a hostage or a captive, a young, probably Mexican girl, from a Comanche headman, who's wearing a headdress in the

drawing, to one of the Germans. And this activity is portrayed slightly differently in the two different drawings, but seems to be the focal point. And historically, there are a number of

instances of transfer of captives between native tribes and immigrant groups, specifically Germans in this case. And so part of our task was to try and identify whether this was a specific

event that was being recorded here or not. And if not, then what? - And how old are these drawings? Where can we date them back to? Or can we? - Yeah, we were able to date them to

approximately 1848, 1849. And there were some dates scribbled on the back of a couple of them. We weren't sure if they were accurate, but what really enabled us to kind of hone in on

the dates was when we identified the captive that we thought was depicted and when that exchange took place. And through the course of our research, we realized there were probably two

episodes when the Comanches and the Germans got together where that exchange could have taken place. One was in 1847, and then one was late in 1848. And we concluded that it was almost

definitely that latter time period. - Now you say someone came to you or that someone had come to you that had found this drawing. Where was it for all these years? (laughs) - Yeah, so

Timothy's friend, Bob Phelps, who also lives in Fredericksburg, had not long before, inherited these two drawings. The one of the ox carts and of the two captive drawings, one is done

in pencil and one is done in ink. He inherited the pencil version. They were companion pieces. And he inherited them from an uncle who had bought them from an antique dealer in San Antonio,

back probably in the 1980s. But the tags on the back said that they had been made available in an estate sale back in the 1930s. And that was part of the story too, who had, you know, the

family that originally owned them, had a connection with our artist. So that's how we kind of honed in on the dates there as well. - Well, there's a lesson there to, I guess, look

closely at antique stores, because you never know what treasure you could find. - Yeah, yeah. (Christine laughs) So the third drawing, which as Chris describes, is really the same scene,

slightly from a different perspective, but it's done in pen and ink. That one was also associated with this originating family but it was passed down through a separate branch. And that

one hangs in the Herff Homestead on the Cibolo Center for Conservation property in Boerne, so that one was kind of on public display, but we had never noticed it, and it matched these other

two. And Timothy somehow knew about that one and brought it to our attention. So suddenly we had two perspectives of the same event. - I guess that would also go towards maybe verifying it,

that it's a similar study of the same images being depicted. You could really connect it more easily than if you just found the separate drawing and not the second. - Absolutely. Yeah,

and then the style of the artist in both cases, 'cause initially the artist wasn't easily identified. We found the name Friedrich printed in the corner of one of the drawings, and

that led to figuring out that all three of the drawings were made by that same person. - Well, let's, can you talk about the artist? - Yeah, Friedrich is a very interesting person.

There's a lot that we don't know about him but what we do know about him is quite intriguing. He came to Texas with a group of young men, who had mostly studied together at the

vocational school in Darmstadt, Germany. And this group of people that was led by Dr. Ferdinand Herff, is whom Dan has been referring to, as his family owned one of the paintings. So Herff

and Spiess, Hermann Spiess, another leader, put together a group of about 40 young men to come from the Darmstadt area to Texas under the auspices of the Adelsverein, the Adelsverein was the

Society of Nobleman that organized a group of immigrants to come to Texas. And this was the group that founded New Braunfels and founded Fredericksburg and had the permission to settle

lands north of the Llano River, between the Llano and the Colorado River. So this group of students aligned themselves with the Adelsverein and they came over and Friedrich was one of them.

Interestingly, we have records of his student days at the vocational school in Darmstadt, which is now the Technical University of Darmstadt, handwritten records by his professors of his

performance in different courses. - Mm-hmm. - So we can see that he is noted as being good at drawing, (Christine and Daniel laugh) not good at English or other foreign languages, not

especially good at most of the other things that he studied, but the drawing is marked as being a talent. And of course, that comes to fruition in these drawings that we have here. This

group went up to the Llano River and founded the settlement of Bettina, which was a communistic colony, founded very much on social principles, mostly academics, not experienced in farming

or actually looking after themselves very well in the wilderness. So Bettina, the colony, did not last much more than a year but Friedrich was one of the more diligent and enthusiastic

members of that group. And so he is recorded by Herff, Dr. Herff, as being a good worker. - When that colony broke up, where did they all go? - Well, they went to different places. Some went

back to Germany. - Yeah. - Some, including Friedrich, went to the Boerne area. Boerne, of course, wasn't there yet. There's no town there. And Friedrich bought land there on which

they tried to found another colony along similar lines, which also didn't work out. But if you go to Boerne, Texas today, you will find Frederick Creek which is named for Wilhelm

Friedrich and which flowed through the land that he had. And Dr. Herff also bought land in the Boerne area, the homestead that Dan referred to just now stands there. But Herff worked mainly

in San Antonio. But they maintained their relationship and were friends for all of Friedrich's life, really. - So, as you mentioned, these drawings depict, in one sense, a captive being

transferred and then another sense, maybe them traveling with the natives watching. Can you talk a bit about what the relationship was like between the native tribe, which I guess is mostly

Comanche, based on where we are, and the German settlers? - Well, the Germans were very wise in the way they approached the relationship with the Indians. And even before they left Germany,

they were thinking about how they were gonna interact with the native peoples and they had a different approach than a lot of other colonial peoples in that they sought to have a

cooperative relationship and a friendly relationship. So in February of 1847, the leader of the German settlement party, John Meusebach, ventured into the Comanche territory with a party of

Germans. And they wandered around until they found the German, the Comanche leaders. And they agreed to go back a few months later and they signed a treaty between the German settlers, and

the Penateka, which is the southern band of Comanches, of mutual cooperation. And that treaty is often heralded as a treaty that's never been broken. And in fact, in Chris and my

research, we haven't seen any evidence that it was ever abrogated between the Penatekas. Now there were a lot of Comanches, some other Comanches may have done, you know, some predations

and so forth. But it was a peaceful relationship. And so when the Bettina settlers ventured across the Llano, it was preconditioned by this agreement that the Germans and the Comanches

would try and cooperate and be friendly and the Comanches brought honey and bear meat and bear oil and things like that and they traded with the Germans for several years. And there are a

lot of stories about personal interactions between the two groups. And the Germans learned some Comanche words. Dr. Herff, for example, it's evident from his notes and his writings that

he was at least a little bit conversant in the Comanche language. So they had a very good relationship there between about 1847 and into the 1850s. - I love the format of this book, because

it's such an interesting way, I think, to kind of delve into the history of this time and this people, because basically the way it's formatted is, you start out with the images,

and then chapter by chapter you kind of break out pieces. Like, what does the animals tell us? What do the people figures tell, you know. How did you decide to structure it like that or how

does that make the story easier to tell? - Yeah. - Yeah, that's a great question, yeah, yeah. - Dan did most of the organizing of the material, so he's the one to answer that best.

But to some extent, I think it organized itself, that in our conversations about different parts of the the grand picture, topics emerged. - Yeah, but your question points to something

that's very important. There's so much rich information in these drawings. They're only about this big. They're about eight by 16, but they're meticulously and

precisely penciled. And little strokes of pencil work convey really significant details, whether it's the reins on the horses or the the shape of the saddles, very exquisite detailing.

And so there's a lot of things going on that, obviously the captive exchange is a really serious issue that we could investigate. But as you mentioned, there are all kinds of animals

depicted. In the foreground of the two captive exchange drawings, there's a whole array of game animals that have seemingly been brought in for a feast or an exchange, including

jaguars. A lot of people don't realize that jaguars once lived in central Texas, but we found some accompanying German writings that said, "Yeah, the Comanches are wearing jaguar

skins." So really interesting sort of side details. The detail of the horses, their tack and the saddles and everything, is really exquisite, and in fact, we would say that with maybe

the exception of George Catlin, who was another early frontier artist, Friedrich by far is the most faithful artist in showing us exactly what Comanche horses looked like. And then there are

scenes in the background of the Comanche families, the children moving with their mothers, which conveys how the people emerged out of the landscape to meet the Germans. So there's a

kind of dynamic feel to the whole picture. So there are all kinds of things going on. There are things off in the corners of people interacting with each other in particular ways. It tells

sort of an amazingly rich story surrounding that central event. - I also think this is such an approachable way to maybe teach history to people who maybe don't wanna read a giant

textbook. It's not a huge volume, there's a lot packed in here, but it breaks it down in a way that maybe somebody who's a more novice or maybe even a younger person

interested in history, it's really an approachable way to learn about this time period, about these people, about their interactions. - Yeah, yeah. - As it moves from the specific to

the general in a very easy way, I think, with these three artifacts, when we look at them closely, we can contextualize them from different points of view, in different settings, and gain a

quite rich idea of what they can tell us. - And for that same reason, it was really fun to write, because it just opened up all these new avenues. We'd notice something new and then,

like the jaguar issue, for example, that was a whole sub area of investigation for us. - Well, you know, there were naturalists maybe traveling through who didn't always capture the

same things. You know, Audubon and others were doing the same kind of work, but maybe not capturing the same details that he just happened to capture in this one image. I mean, I imagine

having the contemporary drawing means a lot more than some writings or some things that came many years later. - Mm-hmm. - There are aspects also of the way that the Native Americans in the

pictures array themselves and how they set up in very organized lines. And there's documentation of that from people who witnessed it and described it in other situations. But here, we

see it in a pictorial fashion, and it's very striking. - Well, I wanna make sure we cover the main action of the image, which is the transfer of the captive. You mentioned you were

trying to find if this was an actual event or was maybe just kind of a summary or a hypothetical or maybe amalgamation of many events. Can you talk about whether it was or wasn't or

what you discovered in your research? Or just keep us guessing. (group laughs) - How long do we have? (group laughs) Yes, the various historically recorded events of this type, the two or

three that we zeroed in on had to do with, in one case, our friend Dr. Ferdinand Herff, whom we've already mentioned, who at one point, soon after his arrival, performed a surgery on a

Native American. And this was a cataract surgery. So if you can imagine, a young doctor just arrived from Germany, happens to have the correct instruments in his luggage, and is able to

perform this surgery. And as payment, he was reportedly given a young Mexican girl, or he was offered a wife, in fact. So that is one background story, and there are various versions of

that, and it becomes a little bit nuanced. And so it's necessary to follow the way that's related. There are also instances where, for instance, at the signing of the

Meusebach-Comanche Treaty that Dan talked about, the one that was never broken, so we're told, there was also a report by Dr. Ferdinand Roemer, who in his book, "Texas,"

talked about the fact that the Germans were offered a young Mexican girl, and the price is mentioned as well, what they needed to pay in order to redeem her. And there are other instances

also, it is our contention that probably, Wilhelm Friedrich amalgamated and fused several of these sort of oral history threads into one scene, which we have in these two drawings. And

I'm sure there are other aspects that Dan can point to. - Yeah, and our initial assumption was that this was the 1847 treaty signing, because that's the episode that is in the

forefront of our minds when we think about captives. But it clearly became apparent that that wasn't, you know, there's not enough information to substantiate the details in this

picture. And so we're leaning toward the 1848 date. But we found along the way that the story of Dr. Herff gaining a wife through this surgery was conflated with another account of a

captive ransoming. And you know, there's a difference between getting a present as a wife for performing a surgery and ransoming someone, in this case for some files and some other

tools that the Indians wanted. And there's an actual woman who survived well into the 20th century who was such a captive who was redeemed by the Germans and raised in New Braunfels and

then she later lived in Missouri and she died in California as an old woman. And her name was Lena. Lena eventually married Hermann Spiess, who was one of the leaders of the settlement

party. And Hermann Spiess documented his efforts when he initially ransomed her and then he eventually married her. And so we think that she's sort of the central person in this

pictorial narrative. But that Friedrich was imaginative and wanted to commemorate the German experience in a larger sense. So it has elements of a combination to it. And that became most

apparent when we tried to find the site of these drawings. So- - I was gonna ask that, did you locate where this may have or supposedly took place? - Well, because the initial assumption was

it took place during the treaty signing, Chris and I went up to the treaty site, which is beautifully marked, and we tried to match the photo to the hill and that site and everything. And

there were resemblances, but less than totally convincing. So then eventually, we also went to the Bettina site, which is a mysterious place. It almost doesn't exist anymore. We had a

local historian named Glenn Hadler help us tour that property. And we looked at that, and again, it wasn't a perfect match with the drawings, but we could see some places where, if the

vegetation wasn't quite as high as it is now, it kind of matched it. So we think Friedrich absorbed all of this landscape and made an idealized picture. Chris, you might wanna talk

about the other pictures we viewed of the treaty, you know, to see if there was a match there. - The pictures of the treaty? - The treaty signing, like the one in Fredericksburg or Lee

Casbeer's work? - Yes, I see, yes. Yes, there have been other attempts to represent the treaty signing by artists, painters particularly, and there's a sculpture in Fredericksburg

that commemorates that event as well. So all of these artists bring some information into this scene, in an abstract sense. And so we also took our research into their work to see what they

could tell us, what additional information there might be that would give us a clue to interpreting exactly what it was that we were looking at. - Well, unfortunately, we're running

short on time here, so, this is such a fascinating topic, I would encourage people to read the book to learn more because there's so much we didn't get to delve into as far as more

of the culture and more of the details. But in our final two minutes, what would you hope people take away from this book? - Well, a receipt from having bought it. (group laughs) But this

is a book that addresses not only scholars and researchers, but also a popular audience. Anybody can read it and understand it and hopefully get something out of it. It gives some

perspective on history of Texas, German settlement history of Texas, Plains Indians, specifically Comanches and their relationship with the history of Texas, and what things were like in the

middle of the 19th century. It also, I think, it gives a very human idea of how people manage, ordinary people, these German settlers are not great historical leader figures, necessarily.

They're ordinary people put into an extraordinary situation and they have to deal with it. And so this gives us a little window into how that was for this group in the middle of the

19th century. - Well, that's wonderful. Thank you so much, both of you, for being here. This was a wonderful conversation. That book, again, is "Comanches, Captives, and

Germans." That's all the time we have for today. I will see you again soon. (upbeat acoustic music)