Romance scam kingpin brought to justice, part 2

(MUSIC INTRO) [00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:00:05] I had credit cards maxed out. I says, "I have nothing else to sell to make money and get money for

you." He says, "Well you got your home there." I says, "The one I'm living in?" He says, "Yes." He says, "Sell it." I says, "And what

am I supposed to do until you get over here and we can find a place?" "Well you'll think of something," you know, "go, go rent a hotel room or whatever."

[00:00:28] Bob: Go rent a hotel room! Oh my God. [00:00:30] Yeah, and so at that point I got angry. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:00:41] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob

Sullivan. When we left our story, federal authorities had just arrested two suspects for their part in a far-reaching romance scam, one that has stolen millions of dollars from dozens of

victims. And those two suspects had coughed up a name, Wisdom Onyobeno, the man they say is the king pin, the mastermind behind it all. And he's in Atlanta. The two women who have been

arrested, Sadae Mills and Dominique Golden, have a lot to say about Wisdom. Not only is he directly involved in telephone conversations that manipulate victims into believing they're

his lover, he finds money mules that way too. [00:01:24] But he would go to these clubs, and he would recruit these women to do that for him. [00:01:29] Bob: That's US Postal Inspection

Service Investigator, Cory McManus. [00:01:34] Cory McManus: Wisdom was a very suave guy. He, you know, had a nice fancy car, he had a, a Range Rover, he had Rolexes, he flashed a lot of

money. Women were attracted to him, so Dominique Golden was the first one that he met at one of these nightclubs, and she liked his lifestyle, he wined and dined her, and then said, "Do

you want to make some money too? This is how you do it." [00:01:53] Bob: So this is also not a vision I've ever had of dance clubs in a place like Atlanta, Atlanta, right?

[00:02:00] Cory McManus: Yes, yep. [00:02:00] Bob: Yeah, being hotbeds for romance scam operations. That's not how I envision it at all. [00:02:06] Cory McManus: Yeah, Atlanta is very

active in regards to fraud. Houston and Atlanta are probably the two busiest capitals that we work out of and in regards to what we see for activity with romance scams, and where the

money's going to. You know knowing that Dominique and, and Sadae Mills and two of his, what they were, what they called them is strikers. They're, these are women that they open

bank accounts for him, they, that's was the terms that they used is a striker. Um, once his two strikers got picked up, he knew it, it was going to eventually catch up to him down the

road sometime. [00:02:36] Bob: The strikers coughed up other leads too. Information that made that road a little bit shorter. [00:02:43] Cory McManus: So with the information they provided,

we kind of backtracked to what our initial steps were to get us into the Houston area to do the search warrants, right. We looked at bank account, we looked at all different types of

financial in--, information to build our case up against Wisdom Onyobeno. I think, Bob, all in all, I think we sent out over 120 subpoenas as part of the investigation. [00:03:05] Bob: Oh my

God. [00:03:05] Cory McManus: So it was very bank account heavy in regards to what these people were doing. So a lot of these accounts are only open for a very short period of time. But

these scammers just go to different bank accounts and they use mules like Dominique Golden and Sadae Mills, and they give them instructions. Go to Wells Fargo, go to Bank of America, go to

these different banks, open up an account here under this name, and then they'll have, once that account's established, they now have the victim funds go into that account until

that account eventually gets shut down. So oftentimes you're kind of, you know, chasing these accounts one by, you know, before you actually get a chance to see the account, the account

gets shut down and it gets reopened somewhere else. That's how the Beverly Hawes interview came out because we sent out further subpoenas. [00:03:44] Bob: As Cory traces the human

beings behind each one of those bank accounts, he keeps finding more victims like Beverly Hawes of Florida. When she crossed paths with Wisdom Onyobeno, she was still mourning the death of

her husband who had passed away just before they could celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary. [00:04:03] Bev Hawes: Yes, we were about 10 months shy. We were planning our 50th, but

unfortunately the last 15 years of his life, he went through six different rounds of cancer. [00:04:15] Bob: Bev and her husband met and got engaged within a few days. [00:04:20] Bev Hawes:

We met and went out on a Saturday night. Went to the Sweetheart's Ball, which is our high school Valentine's dance, and the following, that was eight days, the following Sunday,

you know, we became engaged. [00:04:34] Bob: Eight days! [00:04:35] Bev Hawes: Eight days. [00:04:36] Bob: So you got married when you were 18, and then at basically 68 or so you're a

widow. [00:04:42] Bev Hawes: Yes, I, I became a widow at 68 years old. I... [00:04:46] Bob: I mean that, but that must, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but, but I, I, how can you explain to

somebody what that feels like? I mean obviously you've been with this man almost all of the life that you remember. That must have been really hard. [00:04:55] Bev Hawes: Right, no, it

really wasn't. We were soulmates, we were truly soulmates. [00:05:01] Bob: Roughly two years after she says good-bye to her husband, Bev decides she'll take a shot at finding

friendship, maybe more, online. [00:05:10] Bev Hawes: Okay, well I was, it was in a really difficult, I was in a lonely point, you know and stuff. Really struggling with the loneliness, and

I said, "Lord, if there's somebody you want me to have in my life, bring him to me." I met a guy the next day on Christian Mingle that we talked from about 9:30 in the morning

until 11:30 that night. [00:05:28] Bob: Oh my God! You talked for 14 hours. [00:05:31] Bev Hawes: I know. [00:05:31] Bob: Wow. [00:05:32] Bev Hawes: And so he says, "I think I've

met the one that I want to have a relationship with. And if you feel that way, here's my email address. You contact me." And I held my hand over the delete key for about 10 minutes

debating, and I heard a voice say, "But didn't you ask me to send someone?" And I say, yeah, I did. "Then why are you going to delete him?" That was the only reason

I continued to go on. [00:06:00] Bob: Chatting with this man is exciting and enchanting. [00:06:05] Bev Hawes: His name was William Manson, and I immediately thought of the other Manson,

and hopefully you're no relation... no, no. He had an Irish accent. And so it, I was kind of attracted to the accent, loved to listen to him talking, and so it seemed like we had

everything in common. You know, I told him that I was the head of a widow's ministry at my church and that any relationship that developed I did not want that to affect my widow's

ministry. I wanted to continue with that, and he was all for that. He supposedly, he was a construction superintendent on an oil rig, off the country of Poland, and he supposedly held a

Bible study for his guys every morning before they started to work, you know, and so it was constantly, I was, in his emails I would get emails filled with verses, scripture verses and

things like that. So... [00:07:02] Bob: He really seemed like the answer to a prayer. [00:07:04] Bev Hawes: He did. He, you know he was looking for somebody. This was going to be his last

job and he was going to retire and he was looking for somebody to settle down with and just, you know, have a loving relationship with, get married, whatever. [00:07:18] Bob: William sounds

perfect, ideal. [00:07:22] Bev Hawes: He sent me little gifts. I got a, a little necklace that said, "To the moon and back," and it was a little half, uh moon, uh with the, the

words, "To the moon and back." You know, "Love you to the moon and back," and things like that. And you know just various little sundry items. He sent me an engagement

ring directly from the, the jewelers. [00:07:42] Bob: Ooh, I mean did, you were engaged then. [00:07:44] Bev Hawes: Yes. So we were engaged. [00:07:47] Bob: Bev dreams about a grand future

with William. [00:07:52] Bev Hawes: He was planning to retire when he finished up that oil rig that they were working on and then he was going to come to Florida, and we were going to get

married. He had a home supposedly in Ireland. Sent me pictures of this, you know, beautiful little home in Ireland overlooking the town of, I can't even think of the name of the town,

but it was one of the main towns you know and his house was up on a hill, had a swimming pool, all this stuff. Those things didn't bother me, it was just, it was the companionship and

you know the, the loving feelings that we seemed to share with one another. [00:08:27] Bob: As Bev starts to allow herself to dream, almost exactly one month after that first 14-hour

conversation, the chat takes a dark turn. [00:08:37] Bev Hawes: They had an explosion. [00:08:39] Bob: Oh wow. [00:08:39] Bev Hawes: On the oil rig, and it destroyed a piece of equipment

that he had had to provide and they needed that piece of equipment in working order in order to finish up the job. Supposedly two of his men were killed in this explosion, and so he needed

the money to replace the equipment. And he told me that the piece of equipment, there was only one in Turkey, and there was three companies including his that wanted it. So whoever got the

deposit down first was the one that would get it. From Turkey, let's see... so and it was $200,000. [00:09:13] Bob: Oh wow. [00:09:14] Bev Hawes: Yes. [00:09:16] Bob: So did he ask you

for all $200,000? [00:09:18] Bev Hawes: Well, bits and pieces at a time, but it got to where, "I need to replace this equipment or I can't finish the job. Can you help me?"

[00:09:25] Bob: How, how did you feel about that? [00:09:28] Bev Hawes: You know I, I think internally I had some I had some issues. But I was raised, my parents raised me, you trust people

until they prove they can't be trusted. And so by that time we were about a month into this relationship, and everything had been going good. You know we talked every day. We emailed

constantly. So you know I, I was trying to be the support that I should be if we were in a, a relationship. [00:09:56] Bob: Bev doesn't have that kind of cash, but she does have a

family home, a second home in Oregon. So... [00:10:05] Bev Hawes: Well we sold the Ore--, I sold the Oregon home. Took a, a $50,000 hit on it. [00:10:10] Bob: Oof. And so when you, when you

sold that home, was did that provide all of the $200,000 or did, did you need more? [00:10:16] Bev Hawes: Oh, I needed more. I ran my credit cards. I have I think three credit cards; I ran

those up to their max. One was 15,000, one was 10,000. And again, I had savings because I was debt-free. I think I had about $60,000 in savings, and I was getting to a point, you know, we

raised the 200,000. I sent that over to him in numerous certified, you know, checks, and, and then he came back with, "Okay, I found out that to get this equipment uh transferred from

Turkey over to the oil rig, it's going to have to go through Poland, through Turkey and then Poland to the coastline and then be carried by ferry out to the oil rig," which was

going to be another $80,000. And so well all told, I ended up sending him, not including the certified check fees and shipping fees, I sent him over 325,000. [00:11:19] Bob: Oh my God.

[00:11:20] Bev Hawes: And I, I was to the point where I was then maxed out, I had credit cards maxed out and I had nothing more, and he became, and then things started going downhill. He was

so stressed because you know they, two of the wives had lost their husbands had filed lawsuits, you know for $500,000 apiece and all this stuff, you know and if, if he didn't get this

money to, you know, take care of the equipment and the, the transportation fees, you know, he didn't know what he was going to do and supposedly he became so stressed out that he

started turning it over to some of his guys. And they started pushing and, and it, one of the last conversations he and I had, things were not well between us by that time. I was kind of

thinking something was not right, and he basically, I said, "What else?" I says, "I have nothing else to sell to make money and get money for you." He says, "Well

you've got your home there." I says, "The one I'm living in?" And he says, "Yes." He says, "Sell it." I says, "And what am I supposed to do

until you get, you know, get over here and we can find a place?" "Well you'll think of something," you know, "Go, go rent a hotel room or whatever." [00:12:32]

Bob: Go rent a hotel room? Oh my God! [00:12:34] Bev Hawes: Yeah, and so at that point I got angry. And I said, "You know, I have done everything I can. [00:12:42] Bob: Bev disconnects

and never talks to William again. But there is one more connection from someone who supposedly works with William claiming he's been imprisoned and needs help. But Bev isn't having

it. [00:12:56] Bev Hawes: So I sent a certified letter to the country of Poland's government asking, did they have this man in their, I wanted facts. I gave them information and told

them what the situation had been. Could they please confirm or deny that he was in debtor's prison? And got back that they didn't even know who this guy was. [00:13:18] Bob: And at

that point you know... [00:13:20] Bev Hawes: That, at that point I knew. I was done. [00:13:23] Bob: And at that point she decides it's time to involve law enforcement. [00:13:28] Bev

Hawes: Well I contacted them in I want to say, let's see, this happened at the, by the end of November. It took me a couple weeks to kind of get my thoughts together and determine, you

know, what should I do? So I called, we, we don't have, the town I live in is like a little spot in the road, so it depends on the county sheriff rather than its own city police. And so

I contacted the Lake County Sheriff and because their office was closed to people coming in, they sent a sheriff's deputy out and she, you know took all the information down, assigned

a case number, and I showed her all the receipts and she was looking through them, and she says, "You know, I'm noticing that you sent most of these checks to Atlanta,

Georgia." And I said, "Yes, ma'am." [00:14:15] Bob: The checks weren't headed to an Irish man named William. Bev doesn't know it yet, but they were really

headed to Atlanta, to Wisdom Onyobeno. And now Cory and other federal investigators are hot on his trail. It's been six months since Cory first interviewed Donna. We heard her story in

part one of this episode, and Cory now connects with Bev Hawes. [00:14:37] Cory McManus: Yeah, so I remember, I spoke to her back in November 2019, and this was after we made our initial

search warrant of Dominique Golden's residence down in Houston, Texas, after we arrested her. We were able to get into more bank accounts to further uh push our case along farther. And

in, in one of the bank accounts we noticed that there were funds deposited from checks by Beverly Hawes. So I reached out to her. [00:15:03] Bob: Bev has a mountain of receipts from her time

dating William, so armed with that, with paperwork from Donna's case, with data from those 120 subpoena's, and two months after that initial arrest in Houston, they decided

it's time to move on the romance scam kingpin. [00:15:21] Cory McManus: So we wound up executing the warrants at Wisdom's residence in Atlanta. It was a very expensive townhouse,

yes. Yeah, they, they lived a very nice life of luxury. Uh, he had two Mercedes in his driveway, yes. [00:15:34] Bob: Hey, he was living well. [00:15:36] Cory McManus: He was living a pretty

good life. [00:15:37] Bob: Was he surprised when you showed up? [00:15:39] Cory McManus: To be honest, no. No. He um, was very calm, collected, wasn't worked up. We made calls for him

to come outside, and he came out willingly and kind of gave the indication that he knew we were coming. [00:15:52] Bob: What took you so long, something like that? [00:15:54] Cory McManus:

Yeah, yeah. [00:15:55] Bob: Wisdom might not have gone into hiding, but he was a bit prepared for this visit from authorities. [00:16:04] Cory McManus: I love to say that we were able to

have as much success as we did with Dominique in regards to the seizures of vehicles and watches, but I'll be honest, by the time we got to Wisdom's residence for a search warrant,

his arrest, he already made preparations to remove himself and his, and his belongings from the residence knowing that we were coming. He was, he was aware the Dominique Golden was arrested

in September. He had a, a copy on his phone of her, the entire affidavit I wrote, all 70 pages of it, so he had every page on there. He knew that she got arrested, that it was eventually

going to fall on him. [00:16:36] Bob: So he hid money overseas or whatever as criminals do in that situation, right? [00:16:40] Cory McManus: Correct, yeah. [00:16:42] Bob: And in fact, even

after his arrest, the scams don't stop. [00:16:47] Cory McManus: After Wisdom was arrested, we wound up subpoenaing the jail call jail phone records for, for Wisdom, and he actually

was reaching out to one of the victims, an elderly woman up in Tennessee, that was, fell victim to this scam before and was trying to get more money out of her while he was incarcerated.

[00:17:04] Bob: So he's in prison still running a romance scam. [00:17:07] Cory McManus: Yes. [00:17:08] Bob: That's just amazing. [00:17:09] Cory McManus: Yeah. [00:17:10] Bob:

Honestly, it's one of the, like how can that be? [00:17:12] Cory McManus: Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. [00:17:15] Bob: Now that Wisdom is in custody, prosecutors

must build their case against wisdom and all the co-conspirators. That work falls to Assistant US Attorney Denise Barton, also in Rhode Island. [00:17:27] Bob: Despite all the bank records

and all the victims and all the seized smart phones, it's far from an open and shut case. [00:17:35] Denise Barton: Yeah, you know it's, it's tough. Sometimes the, you know,

phones are, it's, it's not unfortunately like, you know, people see on CSI or Law & Order. We can't just touch the phone and it magically produces all the evidence. So

what is difficult in these cases is to avoid detection, they'll use a network of people to send money to. So they're not just sending money to one channel that we just have to

investigate one person and one person's money trail; it's often they'll use three, four, five, 10 or more persons. And then if you look at one person, they're not just

sending it directly to Jane Smith's bank account. Jane Smith will open up companies and she might open up one, two, or three companies into which money is received. And then of those

companies, there'll be multiple bank accounts opened in each of those names. So you're having to identify the person that money is sent to, which is usually in a post office box,

if they're using mail, or you know a UPS mailbox or you know USPS mail, mail drop, or they'll send it directly to somebody's home, just much easier for us when that happens

but it's rare, and then there's this network of bank accounts because they will try and spread out the risk of money getting caught, pulled back from banks, of detection, and then

banks being savvy to this sometimes, will close bank accounts and then the perpetrators and the people that are working with them as part of a network will open up more bank accounts. So

it's sprawling process. [00:19:07] Bob: As Cory and Denise go deeper into the investigations, they can't answer some questions. [00:19:13] Bob: Ultimately, all these people were

collecting money for Wisdom who was he conducting most of the romances? [00:19:20] Denise Barton: That was never fully known. We know there were some instances where he was making the calls,

and he was having the communications with the people. When we did the search warrant at the residence, there were notations regarding user names on different dating platforms and persons

that he had communicated with, and names that had been used with some of the victims. So we could tell that he had been involved in some of them, but we believe that there were more

instances where persons that he was working with who may have been overseas... [00:19:53] Bob: Yep, Bev mentioned a person with an Irish accent, although also the, somebody else told me that

they thought Wisdom might have been using technology to change his voice. [00:20:01] Denise Barton: I, that's what some of the victims had said. We had some people say that the persons

would have a, an Irish accent or English accent, and I don't know if they were actually using an Irish accent or if someone might not know the difference between a West African accent

and an English accent or you know because we were, unfortunately, not able to capture those calls because they happened before we got involved, we'll never know. But the way these

things typically work is there'll be, you know, one person or, I mean it's almost like a boiler room scam kind of from like back in the '80s where you'll have somebody

who will, there'll be notes taken on victims. Where now she said she has a daughter. Her dog is named Rover. You know and then the one person can continue the conversation or someone

else can continue it, you know, and just... [00:20:48] Bob: So they might not even be romanced by the same person throughout the scam. [00:20:51] Denise Barton: Correct. Correct. [00:20:52]

Bob: Yeah. [00:20:53] Denise Barton: It's... [00:20:53] Bob: Oh, I have a cold or whatever. That's why I sound different. [00:20:56] Denise Barton: Right, or I can't talk, but

let's text. You know it, text makes it really easy for people to, you know, kind of chat, right, and it be a different person. So it, it's, technology's evil, and it's

wonderful and evil in the same time. [00:21:10] Bob: You just said a mouthful, I have to say. [00:21:13] Denise Barton: Yeah. [00:21:13] Bob: One by one, Cory and Denise start bringing the

suspects to court towards a trial. Donna has passed away, but her daughter, Debbie Crisp who we met in part one, continues to fight on her mom's behalf. She never misses a court date.

[00:21:28] Debbi Crisp: And I said, "When's this coming, you know, when's it coming?" I said, "I'll fly to Rhode Island. You tell me what to do, I'll be

there." And so we just kept in contact, and you know, we sent all of our information that we had up to Cory and I think Cory, you know, within that, turned around and gave everything to

Denise. You know and they sort of built their case and we sat and we talked and gosh, we've had some long conversations. And you know just over time we talked and then they started

bringing them to trial and every trial, you know I was in attendance as far as being attended by a Zoom, um, you know and I attended every, I attended every trial there was to speak on my

mom's behalf. [00:22:06] Bob: It sounds so exhausting to go through this over and over. [00:22:08] Debbi Crisp: It is very exhausting, and it continues to be exhausting. You know

it's a, um, it's something that I'm super exhausted over all the time. [00:22:18] Bob: It's also really hard to listen to other families talk about what happened to them.

[00:22:23] Debbi Crisp: It's everybody, you know. There are some of these people that are gone, and there are some of these people that are still so ashamed and still, you know, so

upset about what happened and then to hear them talk about you know the things that they're going through just absolutely put it for me at a whole different level, level to hear people

say, well I'm not having to go to food banks to live 'cause I don't have any money to get food. You know and for me, that's like, no. You know this is not right. This is,

this is not right. [00:22:54] Bob: Slowly but surely, the wheels of justice turn. Golden pleads guilty in 2022 and is sentenced to 78 months in prison. A year later Mills pleads guilty too.

Onyobeno holds out as long as he can, but basically on the eve of his criminal trial in 2023, nearly five years after Cory's first interview with a victim, the romance kingpin, Wisdom

Onyobeno, pleads guilty. Debbi wouldn't miss his sentencing hearing. Here's part of the victim impact statement that she read. [00:23:26] Debbi Crisp: "I sit here today as a

very broken person, the reason being is I could not protect my mom from people that in my opinion have no right to be free from jail. They chose to take advantage of a woman who had lost her

husband and was very lonely. They took away of her, her sense of security by lying and pretending to be someone they were not. They created such humiliation and embarrassment within her

heart. I can only imagine the grief that she carried with her when thinking about how she would survive as these people had scammed almost everything she had away from her financially. I

have cried such tears of sadness for the loss of my mom and the sadness she went through when the interested party supposedly never showed up. Tears of anger for what I hope will happen to

these people for taking advantage of my mom. I'm guessing, (I've got tears running down my face now, I can't see) ..." [00:24:16] Bob: Take your time. Take your time.

[00:24:17] Debbi Crisp: I'm so sorry. [00:24:19] Bob: No, take all the time you need. [00:24:21] Debbi Crisp: "My mom was scammed out of over $400,000. To see that number angers me

in such a way I can't explain, but to pray upon the courts that they hold each person accountable to spend time in prison and repay to some degree what they took. I really don't

care how cooperative any of the--, these people have been; they should all have to suffer and stay in jail. It will make it my life's purpose to pray that all you will never see a

moment of day or peace and happiness. My family and myself will never see a moment or day that we don't think of what you did to my mom. She no longer carries the shame and

embarrassment of what happened, but unfortunately now, I carry it for you." [00:24:56] Bob: Did Wisdom ever look at you while you were giving your statement? [00:24:59] Debbi Crisp: No,

he put his head down the entire time. Put his head down the entire time. [00:25:04] Bob: Cory McManus and Denise Barton have both been through this countless times, but still the victim

stories are hard to hear. [00:25:12] Cory McManus: It's just heartbreaking. You know people don't understand the toll it has on people financially and emotionally. And hearing

their stories, not even just from the victims, but the victims' families, their kids and how much it, it ruins relationships with their family members, it's very difficult to hear.

You know, just as a human being and as an investigator to see the toll it does, but it also motivates you to push harder on these cases to bring justice to these people and, and that's

kind of really where you know that's where I get my motivation from to do these cases. You know you see these, this older generation and how much they've done to further this

country and push this country along and further this country, whether it was going to war or their husbands going to war, or working in factories, and then to lose all this money over

something that they're, they're just trying to find love and to fill that void and that, that loneliness that they have after losing their, their loved one after so many years,

it's truly heartbreaking. [00:26:08] Denise Barton: I've been a prosecutor for over 20 years now, 18 years from the federal system, and it still makes my stomach turn, it makes my

heart hurt. You know these are people who are, you know truly, in most cases, looking to help people, looking to build a relationship, looking to, they believe, help a family member, and

they're just fleeced in horrible ways and they're preyed on. So it's, it's just awful just the human aspect and the financial aspect. [00:26:32] Bob: Finally, in October

of 2024, the judge sentences the romance kingpin to 121 months in prison. That's 10 years and one months. [00:26:43] Bob: Did that provide you with any kind of closure? [00:26:47] Debbi

Crisp: Um, it does. It still does not make the fact that how hurt I am from it go away. And I'm sure that will come in time. But I, you know, the only thing I want to make sure is that

they are never in a position to do this again. I want to make sure, you know and Judge McConnell was very tough on them about some of the things that when they do get out of jail, things

they can do, things they can't do. And you know for me, that is a huge thing is what's going to stop it from happening again? [00:27:20] Bob: It's highly unusual to get a

string of convictions in a widespread romance scam, let alone to capture and sentence the kingpin. [00:27:29] Denise Barton: There's a satisfaction in that we're able to provide

some closure. So there is satisfaction in that respect that there's people who were able to see that people cared, and that there was some efforts taken on their behalf to mete out some

level of justice as they, you know, receive that. It still is tough in these cases because you inevitably cannot make the people whole again. There, there's still kind of emotional

wounds and you know psyche wounds and then there's, obviously, financial loss that they can never be fully compensated for what they lost as you touched on. So um it's nice to be

able to provide some aspect of help, but it's uh, incomplete just because of the nature of fraud that's committed on them. [00:28:10] Bob: But in a very real way, the ordeal

isn't really over for Debbi. [00:28:17] Debbi Crisp: I thank God to this day that my mom was raised by the mother rand the father that she was who were very methodical about things. And

she was very methodical about keeping everything. And actually, last night I was looking for something and I found another receipt where she mailed, where she wired money. [00:28:38] Bob:

Oh, God. You're still finding things. [00:28:40] Debbi Crisp: You know it, it's not, it's the fit that just keeps on giving. (chuckles) You know, and it does. It feels like it

never goes away. [00:28:47] Bob: And unfortunately, the financial implications aren't going away either. [00:28:52] Bob: You have credit card companies asking you to pay your

mom's credit card debt from this situation. [00:28:56] Debbi Crisp: Yes. [00:28:57] Bob: Oh my God. [00:28:58] Debbi Crisp: Oh yeah, they um, she had leased a car, um, just trying to

get something simpler and there was like a gap in it. They came and picked it up, and there was like a gap of $3000. Well they sent me a message and told me I owed them three grand, and I

said, well you lost your mind, I said, because I was nowhere on that thing and I'm not responsible for that debt. Oh yeah, they tried to come back after me. I'm like, well, you can

suck wind, 'cause you ain't going to get anything. [00:29:23] Bob: Debbi is still trying to move on anyway. And the end of all those court cases is a big help. [00:29:30] Debbi

Crisp: And um, you know it was funny after the last one was over, and I said, you know this is, this is when I finally can grieve my mom, 'cause up to this point it's been a, a

fight or flight type of situation. [00:29:45] Bob: Been on the mission the whole time basically. [00:29:47] Debbi Crisp: I've been on a very big mission. And I'm originally from

the mountains in North Carolina, and the town that I lived in was destroyed by Hurricane Helene. And my mom and dad are buried there. And we went up a couple weeks after the, the sentencing

was over, and the graveyard was there, and there in the cemetery there the, it's a military cemetery, so we went there and you know and I just laid down with them, and I just told them,

I told her it was over, you know, that she has been, she has been set free, that they're going to pay for what they did, and um, that I hope, you know I do, I hope and pray that she

is, that her heart's set free. And I'm hoping for my own that at some point in time I'll get to that point. You know. It's taken time, but I'll keep fighting and um,

so as I say, it'll get there. It'll get there. I'm just now taking the time four years later to, to grieve, to grieve my mom's death. [00:30:50] Bob: For Bev Hawes, the

pain of her scam also lives on. [00:30:54] Bev Hawes: Oh yeah. I was, I mean I was, I had lost everything. You know the only thing I had was my house and you know I had a refi on my car, you

know whatever I could to make money and stuff like that, and I'm retired. [00:31:09] Bob: And you had, you had a big tax bill too, right? [00:31:11] Bev Hawes: Oh yeah, I got hit in

July of 202 when I got my taxes done by my accountant. She said, "Well you owe $21,000 federal uh income tax just on you know the money that you made." I didn't make any

money. It went right out the door. I didn't see a cent. Well not only that, but then Social Security, IRS contacted Social Security and so that was the year we were supposed to be

getting a good, I think like 5% increase in Social Security and stuff. And they informed me that no, I wasn't going to get it. I was in fact going to get cut. They were going to hit me

with another Part B and a Part D which was my drug program, and I was going to take a loss because you know, I wasn't going to get the increase, they were going to cut me. And so I was

going to get probably $250 less than I was getting then. [00:32:05] Bob: Oh, it just feels like one punch to the stomach after another. [00:32:08] Bob: The aftermath for romance scam victims

can have serious financial implications and on-going life implications. [00:32:17] Cory McManus: Oftentimes you'll, you'll call back and you'll check in, in with them as the

case progresses through the judicial system, and sometimes they'll be like, "Oh, I'm, I'm at work right now, I can't talk." And you're like, "What do

you mean you're at work?" "Like I had to get a job." And I'm like, "You're 80 years old." And they're like, "Yeah, I have no money. Like I

have to go get a job." And they're working like one, one of, one of the gentlemen that I spoke to in a different case, he's at a hardware store and his boss wouldn't let

him take a break to take a phone call. And the guy's 80 years old, and I was like, this is like unbelievable. [00:32:46] Bob: I'm a federal prosecutor, no less, right? Yeah.

[00:32:48] Cory McManus: Yeah. [00:32:50] Bob: It's important to say there is an unsung hero in this case, the financial advisor who called police initially to say there were suspicious

transactions on a client account totaling $1.4 million. We told that story in part one. That person was the first victim Cory heard about. More people should try to be aware of what's

happening with friends and family and colleagues, and should speak up when they can, Cory says. [00:33:16] Cory McManus: This case would have never happened if the estate attorney

didn't actually look at it and say, geez, like this doesn't look right. Like what's going on? This isn't adding up. You know if that was a child or a niece or a nephew

that was doing the same thing, they could bring it to our attention. [00:33:30] Bob: Also, criminals will do anything to steal. There is no bottom. Here's just one example. [00:33:38]

Cory McManus: You know, you know from our investigations that they go through obituaries, you know all obituaries are online now. They can go through and pretty much pull all the information

off that and realize this woman is a widow. She's got no kids. She's got really no family support system. She's a perfect target, and they'll do everything they can to

try to establish some type of relationship with that person to try to get money out of them. So we tell them, you know, don't answer the phone calls. [00:34:04] Bob: So Cory's main

piece of advice, just ignore surprise outreach from anyone. [00:34:10] Cory McManus: If you don't recognize the phone number, don't answer it. If it's important, they'll

leave a voice mail. You know social media's another big thing. I'm sure you're aware from your work, the older generation doesn't understand that that stuff can be used

against you. Having an open profile on Facebook can be used against you for social engineering. So you know only accept friend requests from people that you actually have physically met, you

know. And just constantly just stay, stay educated about the different types of scams; they're always evolving. You know with the development of AI and, and the advancements of AI I

should say, you know, these scams are going to get much harder to investigate and much more complex. So you know you've just got to constantly educate yourself about the different types

of scams that are out there. [00:34:54] Bob: Investigating such crimes comes with some unusual challenges such as what Denise calls the shame spiral. That sometimes makes it really hard for

victims to open up. [00:35:05] Denise Barton: Yeah, we have um, as part of our team, DA's offices often have them too, but in the US Attorney’s Office we have a victim witness

coordinator. With cases like this we bring them in very early in the case when we know we're going to have particularly this large set of victims that will need to have information

conveyed to them, and in our case it's a woman, and she'll get out information but she'll also use her skill and background, and she has both, in working with victims, to try

and encourage them to reach out and ask for support. And she will successfully get some of the victims to have family members join them on calls. But you're right, it is a shame spiral

that and it, it needs to be broken but I think it's, it's a tough, it's a tough hill to climb for us and for them in many cases. [00:35:56] Bob: What does Denise hope

listeners learn from this story? [00:36:00] Denise Barton: I would hope that whether it be in the romance fraud space or you know those calls people get where, oh, your loved one has been

arrested and we need you to send bail money, that before somebody sends anybody money for any reason, take a beat. You know, pause. Talk to a friend. Ask them what they think. You know ask a

trusted friend or family member. In these cases we see the perpetrators get such a quip on the emotions of the victims, and they really just pull them into their world and they manipulate

them in such a way that the victims just will trust only the person they're talking to and think that there's a reason they can't discuss it with a family member or a friend.

And that causes this money to just go out the door so fast that we just can't get back. So I would hope people would just pause and just ask someone around them, you know, it's

like, almost like the smell test, right? You know does this smell right? Is something off about this? So I think that there's just kind of a, there's no need to rush to send

$40,000 by wire to some random person you don't know in Georgia. If they need the money they can wait a day, they can wait two days. You know give yourself a moment to think about it

before you do it. [00:37:23] Bob: Talking about the crime, coming forward is absolutely essential. [00:37:29] Denise Barton: There's no reason to feel that you've done anything

wrong. There's no reason to be embarrassed. And if more people come forward, whether it be to a family member who then may report it to law enforcement, or directly to law enforcement,

it gives us a better chance to start to understand all the players that we can identify in these, you know fraud scams. We do our best, but the reality is, this fraud scam, these fraud scams

will proliferate and probably till the end of time. They will morph in many different ways throughout the duration of my career, I'm sure. But the more people come forward and give us

information, the more it helps us to protect other people from being victimized in the way that they were. So it just to, it really helps us if people are willing to take the brave step to

come forward and acknowledge what happened to them. All of us that do these cases, whether it's the investigators or the prosecutors, we get how hard that is for them. And we don't

minimize it all. So we're fully aware that it's a, it's a big step for someone to come forward and admit what happened, and trust us in such a way that they have to really

bear some very difficult information or share some very difficult information with us. [00:38:41] Bob: So what does come forward look like in a practical sense? If someone's listening

to this podcast and they're in the middle of a crime or someone they love is in the middle of a crime, what should they do? [00:38:49] Denise Barton: They could pick up the phone and

call their local police department. They could contact one of their local, the US Attorney's Office in their district and we can put them in touch with a federal investigative agency.

There is also the FBI has an online portal you can report to. [00:39:07] Bob: That's the Internet Crime Complaint Center, or IC3.org. [00:39:12] Bob: I'm just kind of belaboring

this because I do think some people, first of all, you know when you go to like a website, fill out a form, it can be a little unsatisfying, right? [00:39:20] Denise Barton: Oh yes.

[00:39:20] Bob: So it's good to call your local police, and hopefully the person who picks up the phone there is, is good at receiving this, but they might not be. It might be a bad day

and it might be busy. [00:39:30] Denise Barton: I think there's also um, I know like in my town in particular and I've seen it in other towns, there's usually like a Council

on Aging, or other services organizations that I know in the towns that I've been, I've seen in a number of towns in the jurisdictions that I've worked in, where they have

taken steps to receive information and walk somebody through the process, connect them up with whether it be local or federal law enforcement. So if they're not comfortable going to law

enforcement, and I get that, they may not be, it may be intimidating, you know, reach out to your local elder services agency. That's fine too. Just talk to somebody so that you can at

least start the process of sharing information and being put in touch with others who can kind of then slowly step you through the process. [00:40:16] Bob: And also, don't be afraid to

contact your financial institution as soon as possible. [00:40:22] Denise Barton: Yeah, hopefully one other resource, sometimes the banks or actually some of the bank officers, you know the

banks often will be reporting this information, and they will file reports that ultimately make their ways to us. Some of the bank officers, if you're, if some of these folks are going

into banks and they're making large withdrawals or large transfers, honestly, some of the local bank officers are some of our best resources because they will reach out to us and say,

you know Jane Smith just came in and wanted to transfer $80,000 to Joe Blow in, you know, Ghana. So you know, you can even talk to a local banker, ask them what they think. I mean anyone

along the process is probably a good person to at least speak to as an initial matter. [00:41:02] Bob: Bev Hawes wants to leave people with some advice. [00:41:07] Bob: What is it that you

hope somebody remembers or somebody learns by listening to your story? [00:41:11] Bev Hawes: And I'd say, when they ask for money, I'd say, tell them to go to hell, and run. Do not

contact them. Block them, do whatever you can. Because they're only after your money. And you know, unfortunately that's what it is. You know we're coming down to evil vs.

good and evil wants your money. There's no relationship as far as they're concerned. It's all a money proposition, and you know I've learned that. That's been hard

because I've learned I can't trust everybody, you know, until they prove one way or another. You have to learn that the world has changed, and it’s not, you know, all good all the

time. So I have be--, become much less trustworthy. I tend to, I don't want to say judge people because as a Christian, I try not to judge anyone, but put it this way, I hold a much

more suspicious heart on things. [00:42:04] Bob: And how is Bev now? [00:42:06] Bev Hawes: I'm still trying to get myself out of this predicament. I'm getting to a point where

between now and two years now, I should be debt-free again. But the thing is is that I have priorities that I have to see, you know that I have put into operation to get myself out of the

mess and then I had thought for a while about going and, and holding a class for scamming for widows, particularly in our church. We have a lot of widows, and I do do the widow's

ministry, but I thought well, it's such a small group, I don't know if it would be helpful for them. [00:42:43] Bob: Oh, can I encourage you to do that? I think that's a great

idea. [00:42:46] Bob: And Debbi, well she wants people to hear her mom's story so others might be better prepared for something like this. [00:42:53] Debbi Crisp: If you, as a child of

a elderly parent, you know if you feel something is going on, you need to start questioning. If I had known, trust me, I would have been all over my mom like crazy. But in my mind, I never

thought she would do something like that. But please, please, please, please, you know you've got people that are taking advantage of elderly people. You've got people that are

taking advantage of, and in that same scoop it's not just elderly people, there are people that are you know, you know mentally challenged that they take advantage of that's, you

know, they can function on their own, but they'll do the same thing to them. And so this is not just, or as anybody who's lonely. You know you can break down somebody, and

apparently that's, that's something that they're very good at. [00:43:49] Bob: And anyone can be lonely. So anyone can go through this. [00:43:52] Debbi Crisp: Anyone. I think

people just need to be, as our local weatherman here when it's, when there's things that could go wrong, he's always like, be weather aware. I always say, even to my own

daughter, you know, be aware of what's going on around you. Watch what's around you. Always be paying attention. [00:44:09] Bob: Always watch what's going on around you and

pay attention. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:44:32] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network

Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is:

[email protected], and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us.

That address again is: [email protected]. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and

our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob

Sullivan. (MUSIC OUTRO) _END OF TRANSCRIPT_