Phony home contractors steal over $450,000

(MUSIC INTRO) [00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam. [00:00:05] Rebecca: I said, "Dad, they've been working on your house for a really long time and you know are they just

about wrapped up?" And he goes, "Oh yeah, this is the last check. Finally done. Finally these guys are out of my hair. I told them no more work. You know, $450,000 later," and

at that point I think my ears just shut down and stopped listening to the rest of what he was saying, because I, I knew that that was wrong. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:00:33] Bob: Welcome back to

The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:00:39] Bob: So many of the scams we talk about here on The Perfect Scam happen virtually. The communication takes place

over email or social media. The money changes hands electronically. But some scams still happen in person beginning with something as simple as a knock on the door. And these crimes are

really troubling because, well, the criminals know where you live. David, who lives just outside Seattle, got a knock on the door like that about a year ago. It was two men who said they

were doing construction on a home nearby and noticed something was wrong with his roof. They could fix it quick and cheap, they said. The fix turned out to be anything but quick or cheap.

David found himself targeted by an international crime ring, one that might be operating in your neighborhood right now, but David managed to help to bring at least part of that gang to

justice. That's what they get for messing with a Navy veteran who worked at Boeing for many decades and his determined daughter, Rebecca. Let me explain to you a little bit about David

who had recently turned 80 when all of this happened and celebrated as someone who worked on airplanes might do... [00:01:52] Rebecca: He went skydiving for his 80th birthday. [00:01:54]

Bob: That's just amazing to me. So the first time? [00:01:57] Rebecca: Uh, no, that was his fifth, I believe. [00:01:59] Bob: Hmm. [00:02:00] Rebecca: Yep, so he said he wanted to do a,

one more and from a higher altitude, and be able to free fall a little bit longer, so he paid for the upgrade to be able to jump out from a higher altitude. Yeah, and, and did a tandem sky

dive on his 80th birthday with all the family looking on. [00:02:14] Bob: You didn't do it, he did it. [00:02:16] Rebecca: No, I, no, I did not do it. (chuckles) [00:02:19] Bob: I find,

, I can't imagine sky diving myself, but what, so when your dad comes to you and says, I'm turning 80, I want to jump out of a plane, what do you say? [00:02:26] Rebecca: Well we

actually bought him the gift certificate. He said that he, he wanted to do it one more time and uh so I knew that it had always been a dream of his, pretty much since his 75th birthday and

we figured, well, why not? [00:02:38] Bob: Why not? Well I can think of a few reasons why not, but that's me. David, and let me just say now we aren't using his last name for

privacy reasons. David worked as an electronic technician in the Navy in Guam and at sea. Then when we got out of the service, eventually landed a long term gig at Boeing. [00:03:00] David:

I was, you know I, I was in Naval Reserve at the time and a lot of the guys that I was in Reserve with they work at Boeing and so they told me that if there's a hard way to do

something, Boeing will find it. [00:03:13] Bob: (chuckles) Um, did you work on specific aircraft? [00:03:15] David: I worked on all of them, but you know I, I worked for what they call The

Wire Shop. We built the wiring; at that time we were building the wiring for all the airplanes and all the boxes that go into the airplanes. And so we uh, I, you know with talking to other

employees, they only worked on one airplane. But in our particular shop, we worked on all of them. [00:03:38] Bob: Many people who are from Seattle will tell you that those were the glory

days of the city when Boeing was its biggest employer and the NBA basketball team was called the Super Sonics for a reason. [00:03:50] Bob: Do you remember anything about growing up with a

dad who worked at this big airplane company? [00:03:54] Rebecca: Uh, we did get taken to the Museum of Flight quite a bit... [00:03:57] Bob: I'm sure. [00:03:57] Rebecca: And then Dad

always grew up, you know, taking us to air shows as well which still to this day we try and make it Seafair every single summer together and Blue Angels of course are the highlight and but

yeah, definitely a big part of the life going to airfields and watching planes take off and land quite a while and then you know he would talk about, oh, I used to work on this plane, and I

used to work on this plane and we used, you know he was a quality assurance inspector, so took great pride in that. [00:04:24] Bob: And about 50 years ago David moved his family into the

house that he now lives in today with great pride, just a bit north of Seattle. David lives in this home by himself so he was alone that day when the unexpected visitors arrived. [00:04:39]

David: I was just minding my own business doing whatever, and then the uh doorbell rang. And this loud voice came bursting through the door saying, "We were at your neighbor’s house,

and we noticed that there was a hole in your roof." And that caught me by surprise -- totally unexpected. And I knew that the roof had, their shingles had been replaced less than two

years, and uh, so he says, "Let me get up on the roof and take a picture." And so he got his ladder out and took a picture. [00:05:17] Bob: And sure enough when this man comes down

from his ladder he shows David a shingle that needs repairing, and also he says, there's a lot of moss on the roof. But these two construction workers, they turn out to be brothers

named Matthew and Patrick McDonagh. They say they come back and take care of David's roof, but because they're already working nearby it won't be that expensive. But when they

come back to do the work, they have more bad news. David's foundation is cracking, they say. [00:05:44] Bob: And, and foundation problems, that's kind of scary, right? That's

a big deal. [00:05:48] David: Yes. They, you know they said it was cracked and underneath the, above the crack is where the wall looked like it was bulging. You know it wasn't very

noticeable if you're just walking by it, but he made it sound like that it could get worse, especially if we had an earthquake, the foundation may not hold. [00:06:09] Bob: The

foundation may not hold? Well that's certainly scary. But Matthew and Patrick are insistent that the work should be done as soon as possible. They need a fairly large deposit, a check

to pay for materials. But the two men seem trustworthy and charming. They have Irish accents; David can tell partly because his family heritage is part Irish. [00:06:31] David: Patrick was

the guy that had the booming voice, and he was very, I'd say probably at 250 as far as weight goes, and you know, big guy, and uh Matthew was the quiet one. And he's the one that

actually handled the checks, you know, Patrick would let me know what the check's for, and it, they need to have it so they can get their material or, or pay the labor or, or something

along that line. And uh, so Matthew kept telling me what it need to be, how much need to be paid and, and uh, that his, his name had two Ts in it. And things like that. But Matthew was the

quiet one and, and Patrick was the one that acted like the boss of the crew that was working on the house. [00:07:23] Bob: A few days go by and the work begins. A crew comes by to begin some

difficult digging. [00:07:29] David: They uh, dug a trench along the foundation. And what happened after that I don't know because I wasn't at home, but they supposedly had put a

layer of concrete down into the trench and a metal plate on top of that or, or the other way around. The metal and it was a combination of metal and concrete. And by the time I saw it again

it was all buried. [00:07:56] Bob: It's extensive work, but not really out of line for a 50-year-old home. [00:08:02] Rebecca: You know there is no reason to question the work that Dad

was having done on his house. I knew it, I know it's a old home, right, it needs maintenance and repairs just like any home does and so there was never any, any reason to question

anything. [00:08:14] Bob: Sure, and anyone who hasn't lived in the Northwest, someone saying there's moss on your roof is the most believable thing, right? [00:08:21] Rebecca:

Absolutely, yep. [00:08:23] Bob: But it seems like the more they work, they more problems they find. They want to put in a new walkway to the house. [00:08:31] Rebecca: You know growing up

we had a wood slat walkway which every time it rained it got super slick, and it was not uh very safe for anybody to really walk on, and it was, of course, starting to rot and so um, a few

years ago that was taken out so it had just been kind of dirt and, and moss at that point, so getting something a little bit more permanent in was I think um, an appeal to him at first.

[00:08:54] Bob: But when they asked for more money to pay for construction of that walkway, David starts to feel a bit squeezed. By now there's been a $15,000 check, a $20,000 check, a

$26,000 check. [00:09:09] David: You know I asked Patrick, I says, "What are you trying to do? Clear out my bank account?" Or, you know, "I need something to live off, live

off of with when you guys are done." And you know they kind of made fun of that a little bit. And I thought it was just too much. But here I am; I've had work done, and how do I

say that's enough and not have the work get finished. And so I don't know where they would have left me standing as far as what needed to be done. And so I thought it'd be

best to just let them go ahead and finish. But at the same time I had kept questioning the checks because it, it just, they just kept asking for more money and I says, you know, it's

just one of those things that you tell me that we're through writing a check and then you come back the next visit and they're asking for more money. And then, of course, the other

thing that I thought was interesting was you know almost every other day, "Did you tell anybody what we were doing? Have you told your friends or your neighbors?" And I thought,

well if they're doing a good job I can give them a good reference, I guess. [00:10:23] Bob: Meanwhile some of David's children start to wonder about the small construction company

which is now work on all these various projects at Dad's house. [00:10:32] Rebecca: Yeah, I, so my sister, who now lives out of state in Tennessee, she brought it up, I brought it up.

My mom um, who does not live with my dad, but she's, we're still very tightly connected within the family, and my cousin who lives in Oklahoma, so he was sharing that, you know,

work was being done with multiple family members. It just started raising a few red flags to family members when like I said, they, they started shifting into different disciplines that were

not the original scope of work. [00:11:02] Bob: And after about a month, Rebecca decides she really needs to bring it up with her dad. [00:11:10] Rebecca: Yeah, so mid-January I gave my dad

a call, and we were talking about other stuff and then he told me, oh the guys just left. And that's when I brought up to him, I said, "Dad, they've been working on your

house for a really long time, and you know are they, are they just about wrapped up?" And he goes, "Oh yeah, this is the last check." [00:11:29] Bob: The last check? Well that

should be good news. But not when Rebecca learns how much all those checks have added up to. [00:11:38] Rebecca: And he did let the number slip at that point, which was the very first time

I had heard how much money he had paid them. And so when he told me, "Yep, last check. Finally done. Finally these guys are out of my hair. I told them no more work. You know, $450,000

later," and at that point I think my ears just shut down and stopped listening to the rest of what he was saying, because I, I knew that that was wrong. [00:12:02] Bob: Her dad had paid

these two men who came to his house in increments over several weeks about $450,000. [00:12:11] Rebecca: There's no, no way that the scope of work that he had done cost that amount of

money. And as somebody, you know, I'm in my fifth house now and I know that you can practically take a house down to the studs at this point and rebuild a brand new house for that

amount of money, there was no way that what he had done cost that much. And so I, I muted my phone um, sorry, because I started crying, and I didn't want him to hear me. And I got my

husband who was working from home, and I told him, I said, "Dad's been scammed." [00:12:43] Bob: Oh, God. [00:12:45] Bob: Rebecca doesn't hesitate about what she needs to

do next. [00:12:49] Rebecca: My husband of course was trying to get more information as I was on the phone with my dad and I did tell my dad, I said, you know I unmuted the phone and I

said, "We need to call the bank right away," 'cause he had told me that they had just left and that he had given them their last check. And I asked him, you know, "How

long ago did they leave?" And he said, "About 10 minutes ago." And I said, "We're calling the bank right now and we're stopping payment on that check."

[00:13:13] Bob: So Rebecca calls her dad's bank to stop payment on the check, but she doesn't even wait for an answer. She jumps in the car with her husband. They live only about

45 minutes away from Dad. [00:13:25] Rebecca: So as soon as uh, I was on hold with the bank trying to get through to a teller that would do a stop payment on the check, I told my husband,

we're in the car, let's go. And so we, he stopped his work day, luckily I'm self-employed so I was fairly flexible on being able to jump in the car. And we immediately headed

you know started making that 45 minute drive to be able to be with him to know that this was a bigger deal than, than what I think he initially thought it was. [00:13:50] Bob: What's

going through your mind? [00:13:51] Rebecca: I'm just trying to see how we can fix this, you know um, I'm a, I'm a doer. I'm a problem solver by nature. Uh that's a

big part of my job as a wedding planner. And so just trying to figure out what are the next steps? What can we do? [00:14:06] Bob: Were you scared for your dad? [00:14:07] Rebecca: Yes, very

much so. Just knowing the financial hit that that took, at that point I wasn't necessarily scared for any physical safety at that point, but that did change when we went to his home.

[00:14:23] Bob: That fear changed because it's dawned on Rebecca the criminals know where her dad lives, and they might be angry when they can't cash that last check. So she

decides to insist that they take her dad back to their home that night. [00:14:38] Bob: So, so you get to the house, at, at that point does your dad, does he really understand like has, has

it sunk in for him yet that it was a crime? [00:14:46] Rebecca: I don't, I don't think so, to maybe some degree, but even when I was trying to get him to move out, he kept

insisting no, they won't, they won't come back. They won't do anything, you know, these, I told them this is the last payment, this was the last payment. They, I'll be

just fine, you know and it was really a, a big insistence. And when you, when you get to know my dad, he’s a very stubborn guy. He likes to do things his own way. And you know he is

independent; he does live by himself, as, as a 80-year-old man and so there was definite concern for his safety once we got to the house and knowing how much he had paid them and seeing the

actual, physical check carbon copies, and knowing like I just stopped a $19,000 check. What's to say that they are not going to want that money back as soon as they realize that a stop

payment had been put on it. And that was my primary concern is he's been paying them and paying them and paying them up to this point, and then all of a sudden they don't get their

money, like who knows what they're capable of. [00:15:48] Bob: Here's how David remembers that afternoon. [00:15:51] Bob: And then within an hour she's at your house telling

you to pack your things and go home with her, right? [00:15:56] David: (laughs) Yeah, I didn't necessarily agree with that, but at the same time I understood her thinking and I

didn't, I'd rather have them not worrying for what's happening to me. And uh, so I enjoyed my visit here at the house too. [00:16:11] Bob: (chuckles) I'm sure, um, but at

that point, did you think, you know, I'm never going to see this money again, or were you still hoping uh, you know, that maybe the work was legitimate, or, or did you see it as a scam

at that point? [00:16:21] David: I, I was hoping the work would be somewhat legitimate. [00:16:25] Bob: Yeah. [00:16:26] Bob: But as Rebecca and David start to talk through what happened,

the scale of the crime becomes even more apparent. [00:16:33] Rebecca: I think the biggest concerns you know of what we heard from the story was that Dad kept insisting and asking for some

sort of invoice or even a business card, or something. And they would never give it to him. And even at the end of all of this they said, "Oh yeah, we, we emailed you an invoice,"

and of course, they hadn't. [00:16:52] Bob: And they also discover that Dad is in an even bigger financial hole than Rebecca could have imagined. [00:16:59] Rebecca: When he did allow

them into his home, and when he finally started saying you know I have no more money, I have no more money, they actually coached him through how to withdraw money from his 401k, and to take

out a home equity line of credit. [00:17:13] Bob: Oh God. [00:17:15] Bob: Now convinced she's dealing with professional criminals, Rebecca decides to take even more precautions.

[00:17:21] Rebecca: So while he was packing, we had brought over video cameras from our house, and uh my husband went to work in getting various video cameras set up to face the front door

and the driveway and just make sure that if they did come back that they were captured on film. [00:17:36] Bob: Wow, you guys are organized. [00:17:38] Rebecca: We try. [00:17:38] Bob: Yeah,

within an hour you already had this whole video system figured out and everything. That's really impressive. I mean I, I'm shocked that you would even think of that, but you, you

had it together enough... [00:17:49] Rebecca: Yeah. [00:17:49] Bob: And as her husband is wiring up the cameras, Rebecca calls the police. [00:17:54] Bob: What's their first reaction?

[00:17:55] Rebecca: Well then initially the, the responder, the dispatcher on 911, she said, "Oh, you can just fill out a police report online." And I told her, I said,

"Ma'am, this was almost half a million dollars." And she goes, "Oh, okay. I'll put you through." [00:18:10] Bob: Soon the police investigator is on their way to

Dad's house. They provide as many details about the crime as they can, but the officer doesn't leave him with a very optimistic message. [00:18:21] Rebecca: There was no hope at

that point of getting any of the money back, but they, the reporting officer that I'm pretty sure was probably fresh out of academy, he took all the notes and was very gracious and he

said, "I’ll, I'll submit this to the detectives and we'll have one of them give you a call," and that's how he left it. [00:18:40] Bob: But after Rebecca gets her

dad settled into her home, she's not ready to give up that easily. [00:18:46] Rebecca: I called my dad's neighbor, and I asked him to set up video cameras from his perspective of

the back deck overlooking the main easement to be able to catch to see if they went by. And, and then day two I told our Bible study, we do belong to a church out here, and um, I told our

Bible study what had happened and two of our group of Bible study members are police officers, and so I asked them, you know, straight up, what do I need to do to make sure that this

actually gets some attention? And they said, well, we hate to say it, but the squeaky wheel really does get the grease. And so you call every single day and ask what is happening with your

case. And so that was day two. I called the police office, uh and asked, "Has a detective been assigned to my case yet?" And that also is day three and day four. [00:19:33] Bob:

And while Rebecca continues to be the squeaky wheel, they get a break. The criminals do come back to the scene of the crime several times. [00:19:42] Rebecca: With my dad's neighbor

setting up his video cameras, he was excellent. He was such a huge help. He sent us recordings every single time he saw that white truck drive by, every single time somebody's, somebody

pulled into Dad's driveway, which was quite often. Uh, that happened very regularly for about four days after we stopped the check. They... [00:20:05] Bob: Oh my God! [00:20:06]

Rebecca: Yeah, they went by day and night scoping out his house. [00:20:09] Bob: That, that would be so freaky to me. [00:20:12] Rebecca: Absolutely. And it was very validating that we took

him away. (chuckles) You know, Dad didn't want to come initially and seeing them drive by so many times was well, that's the reason why we took you home. [00:20:24] Bob: At one

point they got out of the car and sort of looked in the windows to see if your dad was home? [00:20:29] Rebecca: The perpetrators themselves did not. Um, so Matthew and Patrick did not get

out of the vehicle. The two gentlemen that they had doing contractor work on this job with them, they were the ones that they sent to the front door. And we did capture them saying, uh,

"The old guy's not home." Um, peering in the front window, going around to the back of the house even, and uh going and looking through those windows as well. [00:20:54] Bob:

Oh God. That's, that's really disturbing. Did, the, the police were interested in that, I'm sure, right? [00:20:59] Rebecca: Oh yeah. We sent, uh, we set up a, a case report

file with them and uploaded every single video that was, you know, of them driving by or going to the house to that file. So they had every single time that they had driven by which also

gave them plate information as well as vehicle information and also photos of what they look like. [00:21:18] Bob: The videos are important because at this point it's not clear that

local police will decide to prosecute the case. Rebecca has been advised that they might treat it as a civil dispute and just advise the family to file a lawsuit. But the videos help

convince a detective to look more deeply into Matthew and Patrick and... [00:21:38] Rebecca: Um, he was able to put ties together between other states, a very similar MO of how these folks

operated with coming to the house, we've been working in your area, you need work on your home, um, and then taking people for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of

dollars. [00:21:57] Bob: There is a pattern. Reports of unfulfilled construction projects by these two men and reports from all around the Pacific Northwest. [00:22:06] Bob: And that's

when you find yourself talking to an FBI agent, right? [00:22:09] Rebecca: Yeah, I never thought I would have a direct line to an FBI agent but here we are, so uh yeah. We had a very kind of

almost, you know, like a friend was coming over, conversation out on my front porch just talking through the case and Detective Ethan Vi happens to specialize in criminal cases that focus

on fraud. In his past life I believe he was an accountant, so numbers are his thing, and he came out and just had the conversation uh specifically about the amount of checks that were

written, about the wire transfer that was given, and just really trying to dissect this case a little bit more. [00:22:42] Bob: And now that the FBI is on the case, that means federal

prosecutors are involved too, and that's how the case lands on the desk of Assistant US Attorney Lauren Watts Staniar. [00:22:53] Lauren Watts Staniar: I thought it was absolutely

devastating. I mean this person is a valued member of our community. He is a veteran. He served one of our great sort of local institutions, and in just about two weeks his retirement

savings were decimated, and we knew right away that you know this was a very bad crime that we needed to quickly investigate. And then what we were able to learn over the next kind of couple

of weeks is that it really wasn't just David, it, it ran deeper than that. And so that was the real talent of the, um, of the FBI and what they're very good at is kind of

connecting those dots to crimes across the country. [00:23:36] Bob: It doesn't take too long for Lauren to determine the scope of the crime. [00:23:42] Lauren Watts Staniar: Yeah, so

one of the great law enforcement tools that the federal government can use is we can look around the country and try to identify other victims of a scam, and the FBI is extremely talented at

doing this, and the agent assigned to this case, he's a very experienced agent, and so he was able to identify just through law enforcement reporting and financial information that

there were other victims of this scam. This was essentially a traveling road show of fraud skipping from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and they eventually landed in Washington State.

[00:24:22] Bob: And that makes it clear. This isn't just a case of an argument between a contractor and a consumer. [00:24:29] Lauren Watts Staniar: What I was so proud at our local law

enforcement that they were able to pretty quickly see that this fell into the latter group of scam and not the former group of gosh, I hate my contractor and they really did you know

overcharge me and did cruddy work. And the telltales that, that law enforcement noticed right away with this scam were a couple of things. Number one, just the sheer amount of money so

quickly taken from this victim, $435,000 over the course of about 2½ weeks, and you know the detective who responded, he jumped up on David's roof and saw, gosh, there's no work

done here. So that, that was a telltale sign right away, and the story that David told of these contractors coming into his home, sitting at his dining room table, asking about sources of

money, just no contractor works that way. So we knew from those telltale signs that this was likely a crime and not just a, kind of civil dispute about a, a cruddy contractor. [00:25:41]

Bob: So while the FBI works on getting an arrest warrant for Patrick and Matthew, they're also working with banks to track down where David's nearly half million dollars had gone.

And in a stroke of great fortune... [00:25:56] Rebecca: The status of the money at that point was on hold. Uh, we did have all of the agencies working on seeing if we could get any money

back, and fast-forward again until, let's see here... I believe that was August or September, we get a call from the police department, and he said, "I got $200,000 back of your

money because of that wire transfer." [00:26:17] Bob: Wow! That's, that never happens. [00:26:20] Rebecca: So... it never happens, and like I mentioned earlier, nobody, nobody

thought we were going to get any money back out of this case at all. But because they had done that one wire transfer for the high-dollar amount of $200,000 to be able to buy repairs or

equipment for the foundation repair, that was the money we were able to get back. [00:26:40] Bob: My God, that, that must have felt amazing. [00:26:43] Rebecca: Oh, it was huge. That was

elating. There was, I mean we, we thought all of it was gone, so to get almost half of it back was incredible; true miracle. [00:26:53] Bob: Remarkably, half their father's stolen money

is returned. But at this point, as far as they know, Patrick and Matthew are still out there, but these two big construction workers had stayed in the area and within a couple of months the

two brothers are arrested and charged with committing fraud across the US. Rebecca goes to the arraignment. It's the first time she sees the men who stole from her dad in person.

[00:27:19] Bob: Did you have any impressions when you look at them? [00:27:21] Rebecca: Uh, not particularly. Um, you know just I had seen them off of the cameras that we had caught of them

driving by, so I kind of already had an idea of what they looked like. Uh, Dad said when he saw them sitting there at the arraignment that he wouldn't recognize them on the street. He

thought that they looked much cleaner cut than they were when they, you know, came and did the work at his house, so I guess they were getting some clean cuts in prison, but... [00:27:46]

Bob: Did they look at you or your dad? [00:27:47] Rebecca: They did not at the arraignment. [00:27:49] Bob: Soon after, Matthew and Patrick plead guilty. The news is covered around the

world. The BBC even writes a story about these brothers from Ireland who had been convicted of crimes all across the US; in Illinois, in Oregon, in Washington. Rebecca and her father go to

the sentencing to plead with the judge that he impose a stiff sentence. Here is part of her victim impact statement. [00:28:13] Rebecca: "The theft has profound implications for my

dad's future. As an elderly man he faces the very real possibility of needing long-term care in the years to come. The significant financial loss these men inflicted has stripped away

his ability to plan for that care, compromising his safety and security. It is heartbreaking to see my dad at this stage of his life feeling ashamed, taken advantage of, and uncertain about

the years ahead, all because of this man's deliberate and selfish actions. This case just isn't about financial restitution, it's about preventing this man from inflicting

these kinds of pain and harm on others in the future. I ask you for the sake of justice to impose a sentence that matches the gravity and intentions of his actions which will continue to

impact my family and Dad's life for years to come." [00:28:57] Bob: The judge gives the two men 18 months in prison time; that doesn't sit very well with either David or

Rebecca. [00:29:04] Rebecca: It was very discouraging, especially knowing that they will be extradited back to Ireland after they serve their federal prison time here in Seattle. And so

restitution is part of the agreement, but it is, you know, we have heard from all of the agencies, don't hold your breath on getting any money back once they're back in Ireland.

[00:29:23] David: I felt short-changed. I thought they should have got a lot more, but you know, something's better than nothing. You know they, the judge asked me, he says, "We

know that you want your money back, but if they're in jail, do you think they can make any money to pay you back?" And I says, "Well, I thought about that with making that

statement, but at the same time anything's better than nothing, and they definitely need to go to jail." [00:29:53] Bob: And while David did get back about half of what was stolen

from him, he's still dealing with fallout from the crime. He's got a $30,000 home equity loan to repay for example. [00:30:06] Bob: What was it like to see your dad go through

this? [00:30:08] Rebecca: It's heartbreaking, you know. He is a very independent guy, and he loves living on his own and he does a really job of maintaining the home and, and especially

to his neighbors, and he's constantly cleaning up outside yard debris, and you know every single neighbor knows who he is and I think that that was just really tough to see that even

in a close-knit community, that these things can still happen. [00:30:34] Bob: And as far as the financial impact, he's now looking at a very different last, you know, next stage of

life than he was before, right? [00:30:42] Rebecca: Absolutely. I don't think the financial implications have quite gotten through in Dad's thoughts. But as his daughter just

knowing, you know, we're now in the, in the later stages of life and knowing that you know I don't know what the actual statistic is, but that so many elderly citizens do need

long-term care, whether that be in home or in a facility, but knowing how much that that costs, you know, good facilities are about $15,000 a month. And even in-home care is pushing that

number as well. To know how much money they took, in my view they honestly took about five years of his life away from him. [00:31:21] Bob: Lauren, the prosecutor, wants to stress to Perfect

Scam listeners how alarming this kind of door-to-door scam is. [00:31:30] Lauren Watts Staniar: It's really scary. It's a really scary part about this crime. Yeah, I can't, I

can't emphasize that enough, and um, you know it was a scary part for law enforcement, and we, we want our victims and our community members protected. It's just, yeah, it, it was

scary. It was one of the main reasons why we felt like this was such an important case to bring and one of the many reasons why we, as law enforcement, tried to work as quickly as we could

to bring these folks to justice. [00:31:59] Bob: I mean you just don't know what they're capable of at, at that point, right? [00:32:01] Lauren Watts Staniar: Yep. That's

exactly right. [00:32:03] Bob: And, and it has to be a reason why some people don't report the crime is I mean you, if you accuse someone who has been coming to your house and knows

where you live, and probably even knows you know when you're home and when you're not home, if you accuse them of a crime, who knows what kind of ret--, retribution you might face

and that, that's got to be a real concern for a victim in, that situation. [00:32:23] Lauren Watts Staniar: I imagine it is, and that's why you know again, Rebecca and David, I

just laud their bravery and their, you know, courage in coming forward, because it is not an easy thing to do. And they did it, and because of them, I think many other people will not be

victimized by this type of crime because they'll have the education and understanding of hey, this could happen to me. I know what to look out for. [00:32:51] Bob: It's important

to know that these kinds of door-to-door construction scams are a real problem nationwide and across Europe, too. In fact, you'll find news reports from all around the globe. Many times

the construction workers who knock have an Irish accent though one news story I found described it as a British accent. [00:33:09] Lauren Watts Staniar: You know one of the things that is

interesting about this case is we have heard, after prosecuting this case and kind of getting the word out, we have heard from more and more victims of this type of scam coming forward. And

that's critically important is for victims to say, hey, I think this might have happened to me. [00:33:30] Bob: This is the kind of crime that victims might not think to report.

[00:33:34] Bob: I, I think a lot of victims end up in the scam headspace that we just talked about, right, if you’re a victim of a crime like this, you might think it's, it's just

a construction deal gone bad and not bother calling the police, right? [00:33:47] Lauren Watts Staniar: That's exactly right. And you know that's what these fraudsters count on.

They count on their victims kind of not knowing or maybe not understanding the scope of the "work" that is being done. So let's just take victim David as an example. The key,

or the core, of this fraud was the claimed work on the foundation. So these brothers told David, hey you've got a crack in your foundation, it's really damaging your house.

You've got water leaking in, and we can fix it. Now the foundation, you know, we live in old houses, foundations might have superficial cracks, but that's not really a problem. And

then you know these brothers dug a huge trench in the victim's yard, so the victim is looking and thinking, gosh, I don't know very much about foundations, and it looks like

they're doing work, and that part of the fraud is really designed to convince the victim that these guys are legitimate contractors; they're doing the work that they claimed but

that, that really wasn't the case here. [00:34:53] Bob: But, but someone who was a homeowner might see a trench and figure, well, I guess I, I did what they told me to do. I guess

that's right, right? [00:35:00] Lauren Watts Staniar: That's exactly right. And, and I think that's you know Bob, that's one of the reasons that we've been getting

so many calls from potential victims of this type of scam, not necessarily of these two people we prosecuted, but of, of this type of scam, and it's because, you know, these folks may

have thought, gosh, that was a weird experience, it sat wrong with me, but I guess I just pay them, pay the contractors and move on. And really what we're hoping to communicate to these

victims is, you know think again, because it, you may have been the victim of a crime and it's, you know we need to know about that. [00:35:41] Bob: A vital key to the successful

prosecution of this case was the quick work by Rebecca and her father David. [00:35:48] Lauren Watts Staniar: Rebecca is such an advocate for her dad, and you know, one of the reasons that

I'm so passionate about this work is I too, like Rebecca, have aging parents and aging in-laws, and you know I'm constantly on the lookout and vigilant for how they might be

victimized by scams. And Rebecca really did everything right here from ensuring that law enforcement took her dad's complaint seriously, which we really did, to following up

consistently, to you know being willing to talk to media and getting the story out there so other people know to look out for this crime. And just kind of from the first moment I met

Rebecca, I knew that she would be a total force and that her participation in this case would potentially help many others from being victimized like her dad was. [00:36:47] Bob: If you want

to be an advocate for the victim of a crime like this, do this. [00:36:54] Lauren Watts Staniar: The first thing is in many cases, your first call should be to your financial institution,

to either your parent's bank or your bank, and the financial institutions are real allies in combating frauds like this. And what the financial institutions can do and what happened in

this case is, for example, put a stop payment on a check. So Rebecca was able to call her dad's bank and say, hey these checks, they're no good, they're going to scammers, and

the bank very quickly could put a stop payment on that last check. So if you're, if you suspect that your aging parent or your neighbor or yourself might be the victim of a financial

crime, your bank is your first call. The second thing that Rebecca did is she, you know, called law enforcement right away, and she was able to explain the gravity of the situation. And as I

mentioned, you know, the person who responded was this wonderful local detective who worked with the King County Prosecutor's Office, and the, what they did in this case which is, you

know I certainly don't see it in every case and I wish I did, is they were able to seize a bunch of David's money back from the, from the bank account where it ended up. So you

know that's, acting quickly like that, number one, talking to your bank. Number two, calling law enforcement. Those two things can help protect your money. And then, you know, keeping

all receipts, keeping all communications, writing down notes about what happened, so when eventually you're talking to law enforcement and trying to bring these folks to justice, we

have a clear picture of what occurred. And oftentimes an email account, a telephone number, a scrap of paper that might seem like oh gosh, this doesn't mean anything; it means the world

to the FBI and to the US Attorney's Office because sometimes those are just the little threads that we need to find who is ultimately culpable for this crime. But I can't

emphasize enough, first call, your bank. Second, call law enforcement. [00:39:13] Bob: Okay, I'll emphasize that again too. Unless you're in some kind of immediate danger, your

first call should be to your bank. Okay, so how can consumers spot a construction scam like this? [00:39:26] Lauren Watts Staniar: These scams, many of them follow a similar MO. So the scams

roll out as someone knocks on your door and says, "I'm doing work in the neighborhood and I have some leftover materials, and I noticed you have..." and it's sort of

enter whatever superficial thing about your house that they notice. But really common ones are a hole in your roof, moss growing on your roof, or masonry work needed by your chimney. So if

anyone comes to your door and just kind of cold knocks and says, "I'm doing work in the neighborhood, I have leftover materials, I've noticed you have a really bad crack in

your chimney," That's, just tell them to get off your front porch. And I've had this happen to me. So it's, it's common. [00:40:24] Bob: Just for people who

don't live in the Pacific Northwest, there is a moss on the roof 100% of the time. [00:40:28] Lauren Watts Staniar: Yes. There is always going to be moss on your roof. Do not worry

about the moss. It is just, it's like sand in the desert, you know it's not a big deal. But I should say, you know, we're, we're sitting here in Seattle, this is a really

common crime across the country. We've heard from investigators in Rhode Island, in New Jersey, in Massachusetts that this is something happening all over our country and frankly, it

follows a really similar MO. So and by MO I mean sort of modus operandi, but that's the first step. Contractor knocks and you know you might say, "Hey, I'm not

interested." That's when the contractor may get or the supposed contractor may get aggressive, so they may say something like, you know, "This is really serious. Your house is

going to fall down." And as you know, Bob, that's a common scam tactic across all sorts of scams. And what they're doing there, is they're exploiting kind of what makes

us human, our id decision making. They want to create some fear and manipulate that fear, and what makes this scam so pernicious is it's your house, you know it's your home. It

should be a safe place. You want to make it secure. And they're manipulating that too. So they're trying to create a sense of fear and a sense of urgency. At that point, the

contractor might show you a business card or a piece of paper and say, "This is my business" and, you know, "This is kind of what we do." But they won't let you take

that card. So if you say, "Hey, I'll take this and do some research." They don't want their victims to do that research. So they're going to kind of be sneaky about

trying to take the card away. So that's another red flag. If you say, you know, I'd like to do some research, get a couple, get a second opinion about the masonry on my chimney,

and they start to get aggressive you, you should have your red flags up right there. [00:42:34] Bob: It is scary to have somebody say that your house is in danger, right? [00:42:37] Lauren

Watts Staniar: Absolutely. There is a reason that this is a successful scam. It's, because it targets people's homes and because they sometimes will do superficial work. Like they

may get up on your chimney and kind of move a brick around, and then say, "Okay, that's going to be $80,000." And you know that's just, you, you may pay it and never know

you're a victim. And that's again why these prosecutions are so important and why, you know, Rebecca's work getting the word out there and your work getting the word out

there is so critical. But yeah, we don't want our, we don't want our houses falling down. [00:43:12] Bob: No, right, and, and you know, again all of us, none of us, or most of us,

are not construction experts, right, so and we don't know if someone says this to us. But I'm guessing that also at least one part of it is oh, oh, you know, they're in the

neighborhood, maybe this will be cheap. And I was kind of meaning to get something done, get the moss off the roof or whatever. Anyway, right, so this can seem like an easy opportunity or a

good opportunity for a consumer, right? [00:43:35] Lauren Watts Staniar: That's exactly right. And that is exactly what David thought here. And totally reasonable thing to think, that

gosh, you know I, I have been meaning to get this moss off my roof. So I'll just let these folks do the work, and you know I'll pay them 600 bucks and we'll be done with it.

But really what that, you know, "moss cleaning" or masonry work is, is a foothold. So unfortunately, you know, while it seems really easy, it's, you've just got to have

some questions about someone who cold knocks on your door. And Bob, one of the things that we heard from victims over and over again in this case is I just felt like I was too far in to back

out. I felt like I had to pay them for the work that they did. But what we also know from investigating this and other cases is oftentimes the scammers will quote an exorbitant sum for that

foothold work. [00:44:46] Bob: And, you know, real contractors have real invoices and real checking accounts, and you get 30 days to pay them, right? There's, it feels much more like a

regular business, right? [00:44:55] Lauren Watts Staniar: That's exactly right. And they should be registered in whatever state you live in. You know one of the tricks these guys do,

as I mentioned, is they have this flier that they won't let their victims keep, and so if you have work that you need to be doing on your house and someone knocks on your door, just

say, "Okay, I'm going to take a picture of this flier, and I'll give you a call back after doing some research and figuring out exactly what I need to do." And

that's one of the other red flags of this scam, is they'll ask you to pay right away, they'll ask you to pay a deposit. So okay, we need, you know, a $15,000 deposit for this

construction work that we're going to be doing and any of that should just raise your, your awareness and say, okay, I need to step back. I need to take a beat. I need to, you know,

call a friend, phone a friend as I say, um, and just sort of talk through whether this seems weird. [00:45:49] Bob: You know I'm going to do my thing here where I stick up for consumers

at the moment. It's always been great advice, if you have anything done on your house or in lots of situations, get three bids, right? You know at least get a second opinion from

someone, but you know for a construction project of any kind always, it's always good to get a couple of companies in, in to give you an estimate, right? Uh in a situation like this, if

you were to do that, it would probably protect you. However, it's really hard to find people to do work on your house now, right? [00:46:16] Lauren Watts Staniar: It's so hard.

[00:46:17] Bob: Right, yeah. [00:46:18] Lauren Watts Staniar: Yes. [00:46:18] Bob: I mean like that sounds nice in theory, but oh my gosh, and that's why again, if someone comes to your

house and says, "Hey, we're in the neighborhood, we can take care of this today." Like oh, thank goodness. I knew, I know how hard it is to find a contractor, right?

[00:46:28] Lauren Watts Staniar: Absolutely. Yes, and it is, it's, it, again, it's why this scam is so effective and I got to say, like I don't always get three bids when I do

work, you know. I'm a busy working mom. I mean I've got to check off my list and I, I understand that our consumers and our victims are in the same position. And that's why

we want you to just watch out for these particular red flags. [00:46:57] Bob: Of course, David and Rebecca are going to struggle with the fallout from this crime for years, but for Rebecca,

at least some good has come out of all of this. [00:47:07] Bob: How does it feel that you and your dad have really helped bring down part of a big international crime ring? [00:47:13]

Rebecca: Uh, to me, it feels great. Um, like I mentioned earlier, I'm a doer, and so to have this done and to have it be such a great outcome of really uncovering such a broader scope

of what we even thought it was for us, it makes me feel really good. And also with being able to meet the folks that we have in law enforcement and to see how doggedly they work on these

cases, and how tiring it is for them, we're so incredibly thankful that they do what they do because they were able to get these guys caught. So it, it just makes me feel like

we've done what we needed to do, and as unfortunate as it is that it happened to Dad and our family, maybe that's part of a bigger story and just knowing because of Dad, you know,

and because of me reporting it, it's leading to countless other people not having to go through the same thing and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars saved by people that

may have been victimized by them. [00:48:12] Bob: Maybe there's partly a reason why it happened to you and your dad. You seem pretty well suited to, to make those phone calls to the

police day after day after day and make sure they stay on it. [00:48:20] Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. And when I shared with my community of, you know, what was happening to Dad, they said,

"Oh, nobody messing with Rebecca." (laughs) I'm like well I'm not sure I want that reputation, but yes, I do have a, a, a fighting spirit in me and I was not about to let

it go. [00:48:35] Bob: Well I think that's fantastic, and personally, I thank you for the doggedness because unless people report crimes and stay on them like this, nothing, nothing

comes of it. So I, I think it's just great that you do this. [00:48:48] Bob: For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:49:02] Bob: If you have been targeted by a

scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do

next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: [email protected], and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and

you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: [email protected]. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree;

Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to

podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan. (MUSIC OUTRO) _END OF TRANSCRIPT_