Podcast: the grandparent scam - fraud prevention

[00:00:00] HOST: Is there really such a thing as the perfect scam? Today there are millions of scams and millions of us are falling for them. Every week on AARP's Perfect Scam Podcast

we're going to introduce you to the victims of scams and the families of victims. We're going to talk to real life scam artists and con men and with the help of one of the

world's top experts on the topic. We'll pull back the curtain on how scammers operate and how you can protect yourself. [00:00:24] This call center scam works. These people have

figured out a way to make a lot of money off of this. [00:00:31] I don't think anyone realized to the degree that he was living a double life. I never had a clue he was living a double

life. [00:00:40] The daughter that immediately, I could hear her just absolutely screaming at her mother, "You've already been scammed a couple of times with your identity and

you've lost thousands of dollars on things like this before and yet you continually fall for this." [00:00:54] I was emotionally vulnerable. It felt good that there was somebody

who wants to talk to me nice and, and sweet talk and whatever. [00:01:06] That just kind of dawned on me at that point that how many other of these people that I've talked to did I

potentially remove this money from their rent checks? Did I remove from their grocery bill? [00:01:17] HOST: For the AARP's Perfect Scam Podcast, I'm your host, Will Johnson. And

I'd like to introduce my cohost, AARP's Fraud Watch Network Ambassador and one of the world's leading experts on the topic, Frank Abagnale. [00:01:28] Frank Abagnale: Pleasure

to be here. Thank you. [00:01:29] HOST: Many of you will know Frank's story from the 2002 movie Catch Me If You Can. Before he turned 20 years old, Frank became an airline pilot, a

doctor, a teacher, a lawyer without ever getting a license for using his real name. He made a lot of money and eventually got caught for his crimes, but act two of Frank's life has been

a long career with the FBI and other notable organizations. He knows more about scams and fraud than almost anyone on the planet. Frank, how did you first get started? When did you first

realize maybe even you had an ability to do this kind of thing, maybe present yourself as someone who you're not? [00:02:00] Frank Abagnale: You know, that was self-taught, I think. You

know, I was 16 years old when my parents got a divorce and I was pulled out of school and brought to court and told, told that I had to choose between my mother and my father. Rather than

choose, I ran out of the courtroom and became a runaway. Back in the 1960s, runaway, running away from home was very popular. Unfortunately, a lot of kids got in Haight-Ashbury, the hippie

scene, the drug scene. I ended up on the streets of New York City, 16 years old, no money and I realized I had to survive, so the first thing I realized is no one's going to deal with a

16-year-old, and because I looked a little older, I would, I decided to alter my date of birth on my driver's license. I was actually born in April of 1948. I dropped the 4 and

converted it to a 3, and that made my 10 years older or 26 years old. I had a checking account, didn't have a lot of money in it, but I started writing checks, and I realized how easy

it was to write checks and then one day I was walking down the street, still 16, and I saw an airline crew come out of a hotel, and I thought to myself, you know if I had that uniform, when

I walk in a bank to cash a check, it'd be 10 times easier because a uniform shows trust and, and I think it will work a lot better. So, I finagled to get a uniform. I posed as an

airline pilot for a couple of years. I realized I could fly around on the planes for free. I stayed in the hotels for free. [00:03:24] HOST: So, let me stop you. So, the movie is pretty true

to your story, or absolutely true. [00:03:28] Frank Abagnale: Yes. [00:03:28] HOST: That feels like what we saw, and so that first changing of your driver's license, would you say that

was almost like your first foray into... [00:03:34] Frank Abagnale: First thing I really did that was kind of fraud. And then I, you know I impersonated a doctor in a Georgia hospital for a

while. I passed the Bar in Louisiana and practice law there. I actually, by the time I was old enough to drink, I'd written about two and a half million dollars’ worth of bad checks in

all 50 states and about 26 foreign countries. I, like all criminals, sooner or later you get caught. I was arrested at 21 by the French police in Southern France, charged with forgery. I

spent time in the French prisons. I was later extradited to Sweden, convicted of forgery and spent time in Swedish prisons, and then was brought back to the United States where a U.S.

federal judge sentenced me to 12 years in federal prison. [00:04:17] HOST: In New York? [00:04:18] Frank Abagnale: In Atlanta. [00:04:19] HOST: In Atlanta, right. [00:04:20] Frank Abagnale:

And the, and I served about four of those 12 years; when I was 26 years old the government offered to take me out of prison on the condition I got to work with an agency of the federal

government for the remainder of my sentence or until my parole had been completed. I agreed and was released, and I've been working with the FBI now for 41 years. [00:04:41] HOST: So,

deep breath for anyone who just heard all of that and have not heard Frank's story before. It is truly amazing and again, you did all this before you were at least that part of your

life, before you were 20, 21. [00:04:50] Frank Abagnale: Right. [00:04:53] HOST: What was, as you look back on it now and throughout your life, what was the hardest part, before of course

being caught, of that experience of scamming people? I mean there's a lot of it that's sort of amazing, romanticized to some extent, made incredible and funny, but it must have

been at times lonely. [00:05:11] Frank Abagnale: It was a very, very lonely life. I would never want to live it over again, even if now I know where it brought me today, nor would I wish it

on anyone. It was a very lonely life. You know I did it at a very young age. I never got to go to a senior prom, high school football game, share a relationship with someone my age, spent

the best part of my life probably behind bars in some very bad prisons. I think, in my case, you know it started out for me as survival, and then people started chasing me, so then it

became, how do I stay ahead of the people chasing me, until it ultimately became more of a game towards the end. I truly believe that people who say, well you were brilliant. You were a

genius, that's not the case. I was just 16 years old. I truly believe I got away with the things I got away with because I was an adolescent. I had no fear of being caught. I had no

fear of consequences. So, I didn't sit out in front of a bank with a $500 check and say to myself, I'm going to go in this bank, now here's my plan. If they say this,

I'll do this. If they do this, I'll do that. I just went in and did it. I always believed that had I been a little older and started doing this at 21 or 25, I wouldn't have

done half the things, cause I would have rationalized them and said it's never going to work. It's not going to happen. I had the, the idea of a kid where everything's

possible, and I can do this, and I can get away with it, and that confidence, I think, came because I was, I was so young, and that's why I got away with the things I probably got away

with. [00:06:35] HOST: I'm curious when they approached you when you were in federal prison in Atlanta and said look, here's the deal, would you like to do this? What was that like

to hear? Were you expecting that at all? [00:06:44] Frank Abagnale: No, I wasn't expecting it at all, and I always say to people, you know, people always say to me, what made you

change? Was that the change in your life or were you already a changed individual? You know, I would be sitting here lying to you if I told you that I was born again, or I saw the light or

prison rehabilitated me, or that I had all good intentions when I accepted that offer. I really didn't know if I was any different or that I would go back to a life of crime, or I would

start doing those things again. I just saw it as I saw a lot of things at a young age, as opportunities. I was truly an opportunist and I saw that as an opportunity to get out of prison.

But along the way, I met my wife. I had children, and I think that's what really changed my life. It wasn't anything other than realizing the responsibility of being a husband, of

being a father, bringing children into the world. And also, when you work with the men and women of the FBI, they are truly the most ethical people that have the most amazing personal

character that you can't help but have that wash off on you because you're around them, and then you start to realize how important their country is to them and their family is to

them. Those are the things that really changed my life. I'd be lying if I said prison rehabilitated me and I came out a changed man. That was not the case. [00:08:05] HOST: Alright, so

Frank, thanks for sharing a condensed version of your life story, and as we reviewed a lot of our stories for the show, it seemed like some scams were more heartless than others, and

that's why we love this story so much, not because it's heartless, but because our hero, Richard, doesn't actually fall for it. So, some of our scams will indeed have people

that actually turned the tables to some extent. So, of course, that doesn't mean the scammer didn't just move on to countless other victims, but there's definitely a lesson

that we can all learn from Richard. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:08:36] Richard: I am 88 years old, and still getting around. I've been a journalist all my life since the age of 15. I worked for

Time Incorporated, worked for Life Magazine for many years with the founding editor of People Magazine. [00:08:57] HOST: In other words, Richard's no fool, so when his landline rings,

he's already on alert. [00:09:02] Richard: First thing I heard was, "Hi Grandpa." And I said, "Who's this?" I mean it was not a voice I recognized. Well he

said, "Don't you recognize my voice? It's Kenny." And he said, (which is indeed my grandson), "I'm in Chicago." It was a little strange that he was in

Chicago because my granddaughter is in Chicago and I had no idea that he was there. Then he said, "Can I tell you something in secret that you won't tell anybody else,

please." I thought, that's a strange thing for my grandson." [00:09:45] HOST: And is Kenny someone who might just call you out of the blue? It sounds like not on your landline

anyway. [00:09:51] Richard: Not really. I mean I talked to his mother, my daughter. He would call me when I sent him a Christmas or birthday gift, and you know, when I visited his home town

I saw him with all the rest, but no. But when he said, "Can I tell you something that you won't tell anyone else," I said, "Of course." Then he said, "Here’s

what happened. Emily (that's his sister) and I went to a White Sox game, baseball game last night. And we were on our way back to our hotel when our cab was pulled over by the police.

They found marijuana in the trunk and arrested us. I'm at the police station now with the lawyer." [00:10:42] HOST: At this point, whoever is on the end of the line knows a thing

or two about Richard's grandson and is making a desperate plea for help. This may be just enough to get Richard asking more questions, it seems, but again, he is no fool. [00:10:55]

Richard: And my first question, perhaps a rhetorical question, were you carrying drugs yourself? And he said, no, that they found them in the trunk and assume that they belonged to the

driver. [00:11:15] HOST: Right, so having something in the trunk doesn't necessarily mean you're the one that's going to get hauled in for it. Especially a cab. [00:11:21]

Richard: That, of course, was my first question. I said, "If you weren't carrying it, why were you arrested?" And this is where they really get clever. He said, "The

police say I have to stay in Chicago until the cab driver is put on trial which will be 4 to 6 weeks. So, if they release us, they want us to post, in effect, a $2000 bond to make sure

we'll come back." [00:11:55] HOST: Are we talking about like a garbage bag of marijuana here or just, did he say how much? [00:11:59] Richard: No, he did not say how much and, well

as soon as I discovered it wasn't theirs, the amount of marijuana seemed not very important. [00:12:13] HOST: It didn't matter. [00:12:14] Richard: And the whole thing, of course,

it was beginning to smell at this point. [00:12:20] HOST: Yeah. And I remember reading your story and there was something about the White Sox game in particular that kind of raised your

suspicion, right? [00:12:31] Richard: Well, there were two things; one is that his sister was indeed working in Chicago for the summer, before he final year in college, and but she had an

apartment. So, he said we're on our way back to her hotel. Huh? And then went to a White Sox game. Now her hotel was on the North Side of Chicago. And if you live there, you would not

go all the way down south to a White Sox ballgame, you'd go to a Cubs ballgame. [00:13:09] HOST: (laugh) So you're using some geographical awareness of Chicago. [00:13:13] Richard:

But it's very real in Chicago, and so things began not adding up and at that point he said, "Will you please talk to the lawyer, he's right here next to me." [00:13:33]

HOST: I'm starting to feel like they called the wrong guy. [00:13:35] Richard: Well first of all, I mean the first time I had a call like that, all of my instincts were rising up just

to say this is phony, but what if it wasn't? And he really was in trouble? [00:13:53] HOST: And here's where you have to start to see how convincing these calls can be. Not every

88-year-old has Richard's background in journalism or knowledge of a certain town or maybe just a skeptical nature. And not every octogenarian is going to double-guess the voice of

someone claiming to be their grandson and pleading for help. I mean they still have Richard asking questions. [00:14:12] Richard: The amazing thing is the information that he had about me.

Never mind the phone, the phone line, but the fact that he knew his twin sister was in Chicago, and that he knew sort of enough about Chicago, the ball, the baseball teams and all the rest.

I said, "You should talk to one of the family in Chicago, not me. There's not much I can do from here." Then at that point I said, "This sounds kind of fishy to me."

And then he, we're talking to actors here too, then he said this heartfelt response, "Please, Grandpa." And I have to say I had this momentary twinge. Then I asked,

"Kenny, if that's who you are, what's your address in Los Angeles?" Click. [00:15:20] HOST: Richard asked the right question, and he was ready to ask more if they had the

right answer. But that's the thing, here's this smart, intuitive guy, but they've said enough in just the right way to get him asking questions, to get him wondering just a

little bit if this could really be his grandson stuck in a jail asking for money. [00:15:38] HOST: You know, I'm picturing you on this call at home, and the part of your story there

where you said, or he says, "Please, Grandpa." I can only imagine the thoughts that ran through your head, you know, you're trying to do the right thing, but also not be

fooled by a huckster. [00:15:56] Richard: That "Please, Grandpa" and it was done in just the right plaintive, pleading tone; that was the worst moment of the entire conversation.

[00:16:15] HOST: After they hung up, Richard called the Federal Trade Commission and got the low down on this kind of scam. What he learned is the unfortunate truth behind all of this. A lot

of people are falling for it, and a lot of people caught up in the emotion and urgency of the caller's voice are sending money to someone they've never met and never will.

[00:16:32] Richard: I told him what I'd been through and he said that it's typical. And I said does this happen a lot, and he said that elder, that grandparents, senior Americans

send millions, millions of dollars to scam artists every year as a result of the kind of conversation you just went through. So, after this happened, I mean I was still kind of stunned by

all of this, that I sat down and wrote an email to all the members of my family that I had email addresses for; primarily my four grown daughters and in some cases, their husbands, to tell

them what I'd been through. Within a few hours I heard back from two members of my extended family. One was a grandfather who lives in Kentucky, he said he had been through a similar

experience and he apparently, whoever called him was not as clever as my "Kenny" because he began asking questions immediately and the phone went dead within two or three minutes.

The other phone call, he picked up the phone, he was at home, he picked up the phone and there was this again plaintive voice appealing to Grandpa, and he said, "I'm in Phoenix, we

got in a fight in a bar and I got punched in the nose and I know my voice is very different from what it normally is." And that he needed bail money, so he could come home, and grandpa

went around the corner and sent money. [00:18:34] HOST: When did you talk to Kenny after all this? And did you connect with him eventually? [00:18:40] Richard: Kenny was away and working

someplace in LA at the time, so I talked to his mother, and I've talked with him since then. And he has, he's absolutely amazed at what happened. [00:18:55] HOST: I'm glad

Kenny's staying out of trouble. [00:18:57] Richard: (chuckle) He’s graduated from college and has a good job. [00:19:02] HOST: Yeah, and well at least you've got a good story to

tell, to share with each other. [00:19:06] Richard: Exactly. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:19:11] HOST: So Frank, so these scammers ever impress you with their stories, or their ability to fool

somebody? [00:19:17] Frank Abagnale: You can always tell by listening to someone tell the actual incident whether these are real amateurs that are doing this or really pros that are doing

it. It's not always just an individual. A lot of times these are boiler rooms, rooms set up with 7 or 8 people in the room, and they've advanced far beyond that now, so what they

do now is first of all, they go to a social media site of that grandson so they can get the grandson's name, the mother's name, his father's name, sisters' names,

girlfriends' names, even sometimes what kind of car he's driving. They obviously are able to manipulate the caller ID, so they don't want to say they're the grandson

because then too many questions can be asked of the grandson to verify it is the grandson. So, what I've seen more often is the conversation starts by the phone ringing, and it says on

there that it's X-Y-Z police department, so you pick it up and someone says, this is Sergeant O'Brien with X-Y-Z police department; we've arrested your grandson. They gave him

the name, he was driving this vehicle, but he was DWI. [00:20:18] HOST: So, in this case they don't even have to talk to the grandson. [00:20:20] Frank Abagnale: They don't have

to talk, and they say he was with his girlfriend, and they give the girlfriend's name. The girlfriend is not in custody, but your grandson is. He has asked us not to call his parents,

but he has asked us to call you. He needs to post bail in the next couple of hours or he'll have to spend the weekend in jail. Oh my god. [00:20:37] HOST: So, they've got all

these, all these details. [00:20:39] Frank Abagnale: Details, and of course everything always with every scam has to be urgent, right now, must be done this moment. So, then of course the

grandparent is immediately, well what do I have to do? Well, you need to basically just give me a credit card number and where I can put it on your credit card. The bail is $200 or whatever

they say the bail is. Of course they're going to charge the card a lot more money, and they get the parent or grandparent to give them a card number. So they've gotten much more

sophisticated. They've realized that you might start questioning about what's your address, or what's this relative's name, so this way you're not dealing with the

grandson, the grandson's in custody. As all scams, and we’ll go through this a lot, I live on a simple philosophy; everything is basically stop and verify. So the simplest thing in

there is for me to hang up the phone, call, look up in the phone book, the police department's phone number, call the police department, ask for this sergeant. They're, of course,

going to say there's no one here by that name, then you'll explain, I got this call. No, we don’t have your grandson in custody, and sir, that's a scam. It's perpetrated

all the time, just ignore that call and don't fall for that. I think that's the biggest mistake we make. We listen to the conversation and then we don't verify the information

that was given to us. We don't check it out. We don't stop and say before I send some money, even if you had said to that caller, well you know what? I'll just come down to

the police department right now and I'll post the money. They would hang up or tell you, no, you can't do that, you can't come down here. You have to, what you then would

start to get a little bit suspicious, but again, they've gotten so sophisticated that again, you know, even a very smart person would think, well the caller ID says it's the police

department, he knows all this information, he even knows what car that he has, so it sounds that this must be real. When it starts to get bad is that the police are never going to tell you,

yes, post bail with your credit card over the phone. Those are the kind of things where then you start to get a little bit suspicious. So, my response would have been, well can I just come

down and post that bail right now? [00:22:43] HOST: Right, it makes you wonder the percentage of calls in the world that have actually, when a grandparent or rather a grandchild has ever

actually called a grandparent for help from jail, you know, maybe it's never even happened. I mean I'm sure it has, but... [00:22:55] Frank Abagnale: Exactly. [00:22:56] HOST:

These boiler rooms, so these exist across the country? I mean I'm sure outside of the country. [00:23:01] Frank Abagnale: And they have for years, and there are all types of boiler

rooms. [00:23:03] HOST: Have you been in boiler rooms? Have you seen... [00:23:05] Frank Abagnale: I've seen them. The Bureau has raided them over and over. Sometimes they're

boiler rooms selling you investment scams. [00:23:12] HOST: Are they in somebody's house or like in an office park? [00:23:14] Frank Abagnale: Somebody's house. Sometimes

they've rented office space and they operate out of office space. Sometimes there's been as many as 30, 40, 50 people in the room. [00:23:23] HOST: Using the sense of urgency and

fear on a call and having to do with a family member. As you look back at your early career in doing this kind of thing, was that something that would come into play, or was it a really

different time and really different kind of stuff that was going on? [00:23:39] Frank Abagnale: You know with me it was a little bit different because I had one motive all the time, and that

was to cash a check, so I wasn't really trying to swindle anyone out of their money. I will tell you, one of the things that most amazed me about that experience was that say I had met

a friend, whether it be a guy or a girl, and later on when the police interviewed them, I was surprised because the individuals say, well look, I have to be honest, he really didn't

swindle me out of anything; on the contrary, he bought me a lot of gifts, he took me on trips, he was very nice to me. He didn't do anything to hurt me in any way except he deceived me.

And I will never speak to him again and I'm very mad because he didn't trust me enough to tell me who he really was, and people really do not like to be deceived. That's the

whole thing. It's not that you took their money or whatever, it's the fact that you deceived them, and I had to learn that that way, that I was really shocked that wow, why could

this guy be mad? All the things I gave him and all the trips I took him on and they're mad? Well they were mad because you were their friend and they come to find out you were deceiving

them, even though you didn't do anything to them, you didn't take anything from them, you took their trust and that really bothers people, and that was a real eye-opener for me.

[00:24:55] HOST: That's really interesting. And did you ever have the opportunity or the experience of them speaking to some of these people later in life? It sounds like you knew...

[00:25:03] Frank Abagnale: I've had the opportunity to see a lot of them, only because of the movie and then people contact me, and I think people, I think people feel great that what

I've done with my life now, but probably down deep, they maybe feel they still were a little bit deceived and that bothered them. It's like, you know, it's the same way in a

relationship. If you're deceiving someone in the relationship and they find out later, it's not that you mistreated them, you took them to great restaurants, you took them on

trips, you paid for his vacation with them, but in reality you were fooling around with somebody else, you were having other affairs with someone else; the deception is what's really

devastating to a lot of people. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:25:41] HOST: We are joined now by Jen Beam. She is with the Fraud Watch Network. She manages the Fraud Watch Network Facebook page. Jen,

thanks for joining us. [00:25:49] Jen Beam: Happy to be here. [00:25:49] HOST: Alright, so this week on our show we'd like to talk to you about Facebook. Tell us about some of the scams

that are happening there. [00:25:57] Jen Beam: One of the things we're seeing most often lately is with Facebook Messenger, so that's you know, direct message app right within

Facebook. It's on your phone, so one of the top scams I'm seeing and getting a lot of questions about is you'll get, it could appear that it's coming from a friend. It

could appear to be coming from a page that you follow, but you'll get a message that will be a cute emoji or a sticker, you know, happy bouncing puppy, and then a video. And the video

link, if you clicked on that link what happens is it brings you right to a Facebook login page, so people look at that and they go, oh, geez I got kicked out of Facebook. I'd better log

back in. And it's a fake page and really what it is is scammers grabbing your password and your login information. [00:26:49] HOST: That usually comes from, it has to have a name,

right? I mean usually the names... sometimes I feel like the names are kind of absurd sounding names, right? They've got to go out and find a name that... [00:26:58] Jen Beam: Yeah,

sometimes, I mean I think it's the classic you know imposter scam. So sometimes they'll make it seem just close enough to something you’ve heard of. You know just maybe a LinkedIn

but still different, a friend, sort of like a generic name. So it can vary. For us, we see all kinds. So we'll see something that looks like a nonprofit organization, we'll also

see something that looks like it's just coming from a nice woman, Mary Jones from Montana. Slow down, click on that profile, take a look around. If there's only three photos in

that, there's nothing else, it looks like it was created last week, that's a scam. [00:27:41] HOST: Alright, Jen. Thanks a ton for your great information and we'll look

forward to having you back again sometime. [00:27:46] Jen Beam: Thank you, so much. [00:27:46] HOST: Jen Beam is with the Fraud Watch Network, manages the Fraud Watch Network Facebook page.

(MUSIC SEGUE) [00:27:54] HOST: Frank, you’re a wealth of information, luckily we have a whole season of episodes coming to our listeners to go through a lot more in the shadowy world of

scams. The main thing is grandparents, stop and verify. [00:28:06] Frank Abagnale: Absolutely. It doesn't matter whether you're a grandparent and you're 80, or you're a

grandparent and you're 50. [00:28:11] HOST: Alright. Next week we'll be back with more scams, more frauds, and of course, my cohost, Frank Abagnale. Thanks for being here.

[00:28:17] Frank Abagnale: Thank you for having me. (MUSIC OUTRO) [00:28:19] HOST: For more information and resources on how to protect yourself from becoming a victim of a scam, visit

AARP's Fraud Watch Network website, AARP.org/fraudwatchnetwork. Special thanks to our producers, Julie Getz and Brook Ellis. Our audio guru and engineer, Julio Gonzales, and of course,

my cohost, Frank Abagnale. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts or any of the many fine podcast outlets you choose to visit. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Will Johnson. END OF TRANSCRIPT