Podcast: favorite scams and tips - fraud prevention

[00:00:01] HOST: Coming up on this episode of AARP's Perfect Scam. [00:00:03] The scammers are always thinking of stuff, and they're very creative and they're very nimble.

[00:00:09] Yeah, they walked away with a quarter of a million dollars. [00:00:12] There are a lot of scammers out there and they all have one gal, to separate you from your money. [00:00:19]

HOST: What would you do if you were scammed? Who would you turn to? Who would you call? On today's episode, we're going to introduce you to some of the AARP's top fraud

experts. These are people who are working with scam victims and potential victims every day across the country. These are, in fact, the people who want you to call when you've been

scammed. And they're helping all of us do a better job protecting ourselves. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Will Johnson, I am joined by the AARP Fraud Watch Network Ambassador, Frank

Abagnale. Frank, thanks for being here. [00:00:47] Frank Abagnale: Thank you, Will. [00:00:47] HOST: Frank is, as you hopefully know, one of, I can say this, one of the most famous

impersonators of all time perhaps. [00:00:56] Frank Abagnale: Whatever you like. [00:00:56] HOST: Con man, maybe. Has there ever been a Frank Abagnale impersonator that you're aware of?

[00:01:00] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, I think there's some people that have tried to mimic some of the things I've done. I don't know if they've been very successful at it,

but occasionally I'll see in the paper where they'll say similar to Frank Abagnale. I do get a kick, I do get amused at whenever something happens like some jewel heist or some art

heist, or something like that, they always refer back, like Frank Abagnale. Well, I never, I don't know anything about art. Or heist some jewelry, but they use me a lot as a reference

to every kind of scam or robbery that occurs. [00:01:30] HOST: Giving you far more much more credit than you deserve. I mean your thing was checks. [00:01:33] Frank Abagnale: That's

right. Absolutely. [00:01:36] HOST: Alright, so today, we are going to talk to members of the AARP Fraud Watch Network Team and about some of the amazing things they're doing to help

people report scams, find out about scams, get information on scams. And we'll get to that. But first of all, we wanted to have a little fun today. We're going to talk about some

of the scams that you might not have heard of out there. And Frank, you were telling me about one in particular, the shopping scam, that's probably, it's more of a niche scam, I

guess you could say that. [00:02:04] Frank Abagnale: It's a niche scam, but it's been around quite a while and it's still very popular today. It does require a lot of work,

time, and money, but in the end the payoff is real big. So, one I'm very familiar with was a group of people that basically ran ads in out in places like Scottsdale, Arizona, in very

high wealth areas, and simply said that they were a company that represented very wealthy people on the East Coast who were looking for professional shoppers to buy things that they're

too busy to shop. They're running a company or a corporation and Christmas coming, and they need someone to go out and has good taste, they can buy things that they want to get for

their family and friends and associates. And that they will be holding interviews for those shoppers at the Ritz Carlton in Phoenix, Arizona during these two days. [00:02:54] HOST: And this

is something, a professional shopper is a career, is a job, a hobby, but something that exists. [00:03:00] Frank Abagnale: Exactly. [00:03:01] HOST: In some realm. [00:03:01] Frank Abagnale:

Exactly. So people go and they get interviewed by these people, and they're looking for the things like, yes, my husband's a surgeon here in Phoenix, and I live in the Biltmore

Estates which is a very wealthy neighborhood, and I'm kind of a housewife and my kids are grown. I'm looking for things to do, but I know good quality goods. [00:03:21] HOST: So

they're looking for people with a lot of money. [00:03:24] Frank Abagnale: A lot of money. [00:03:24] HOST: Yeah. [00:03:25] Frank Abagnale: So then they finally write you a letter and

say they selected you and that they have a client that would like for you to be their personal shopper, and that what we, how we work this is we will send you a cashier's check for

$50,000. [00:03:40] HOST: And just so we are clear, what is a cashier's check? [00:03:41] Frank Abagnale: Cashier's check, like an official bank check where the money's

already been put aside, and that we'll send you the cashier's check and you can deposit it in your account, then we will then forward you, in a short period of time a list of

things that they would like to purchase, and then you can go out and purchase, and of course, they get paid a few or a commission for doing these things. [00:04:00] HOST: To do the shopping

itself, so you get the check and then you get paid up front for the, for what you're doing or... [00:04:05] Frank Abagnale: Well you don't, you get paid supposedly a commission or

so on. So then what happens is you're followed up very quickly with an email or a phone call saying that the person has changed their mind after you deposited the check, and that

they've decided to not do that and we ask that you refund the money immediately and you can either wire us the money to this account, however, do take out $2500 for your services and

the time you took and devoted to this project. [00:04:34] HOST: So you've gotten a check for say $10,000 to go shopping and now you're told, you deposited that into your account.

You are told to send that money back but take out $2500 and so you send back 7500? [00:04:49] Frank Abagnale: Right, and how that words and to keep in mind the ones I've seen are all

around $50,000 or more, because people they're buying for buy very expensive jewelry and gifts, but when you deposited the check, because that woman married to the surgeon, she and her

husband are well established at that bank. They're good customers, have a great deal of money at that bank, so that means they get immediate credit, okay. So then what happens during

that period of time we take that check to clear, they've come back and said return the money, so that person then goes into the bank and says I need to wire $48,000 to this bank

account. They wire the money only later to find out that the check is no good. Now, by federal law, the endor--, the last endorser of the check is who's liable for that loss. So

that's her liability. So she's lost the money because she endorsed the check and deposited it in her account. The bank really doesn't care that she was scammed or how she was

scammed or what happened. The fact is, the law is very explicit. The last endorser holds the liability for the check that was deposited. [00:05:55] HOST: Because that money, that check

wasn't, was a fraud. [00:05:57] Frank Abagnale: The checks turned out to be fraudulent, she paid out the, she paid out the $48,000 she wired back, so she's now out... [00:06:05]

HOST: She sent that money back. [00:06:06] Frank Abagnale: Right, so she's out all her money because... [00:06:08] HOST: It's a timing scam, clearly. [00:06:09] Frank Abagnale:

Yeah. [00:06:10] HOST: They've got to get this money back before anybody determines it. How long is that usually? [00:06:13] Frank Abagnale: And she never even got the 2500 because that

was supposedly money from a legitimate deposit which turned out to be not so... [00:06:20] HOST: Wow, that's a complicated scam. [00:06:22] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, and it can take you

know still 3 to 5 days to clear a check, especially across country, and that's if they haven't manipulated the routing numbers and things on the check. [00:06:32] HOST: So, these

scammers have gone to, and this is really happening? This sounds like a movie in and of itself. [00:06:38] Frank Abagnale: Yes. So, you know, I mean these things happen all the time. Again,

you don't hear a lot about it, because who wants to jump out there and say I was defrauded by this scam. So, a lot of times some people do report it and we hear about it. The one that I

was reciting to you was publicly known. It was in the paper. It was in all of that of what actually happened. But that's how elaborate they can get, but when people think about well,

you know, who goes through all that? Well, yeah. That was one lady. So say there were four or five shoppers that they hired and did that with, you know they walked away with a quarter of a

million dollars, so who cares about what it took to run an ad in the paper and what it took to rent a small little meeting room in a hotel for a couple of days? Five grand? [00:07:20] HOST:

And that would presumably be a small team of people or one or two people? More? [00:07:24] Frank Abagnale: It might be one or two people, three people, yeah, so that's not a big,

it's not, it's a lot of money for a little bit of work. [00:07:29] HOST: Yeah. Alright. So from sort of a very involved scam to a very low tech scam, the mustard scam. This is

real, too. Tell us about this. [00:07:41] Frank Abagnale: You know the mustard scam is a very well-known scam, and actually the reason it's called the mustard scam, it could be

anything. It could be other things, but they usually will take a packet of mustard, put a little slice in it, and then will walk up to someone who has a computer bag or a briefcase, right,

sitting by them, could be in the airport, could be outside, and they will kind of walk up and tap you on the shoulder, but while they're tapping you, they're putting the mustard on

your coat, and then they simply say, "Sir, I didn't know if you realized it, but you have some mustard or some stain on your coat." "What?" And then they go to take

their coat off and all, while they're all occupied with cleaning their coat, the accomplice walks away with their bag, and when I did some shows like Crime Watch Tonight and did some

video training tapes, we actually did it. It was an actor, so we did it to people, and every time it worked. You know, of course, we immediately brought back their stuff, but we explained to

them how easy it was... [00:08:33] HOST: You walked up to some stranger with a bag and would... [00:08:35] Frank Abagnale: Right, and we would do that, and then we'd come back, of

course we'd have to get their consent to show it on TV or consent to do it, and most people always did give their consent, but we explained to them, we're trying to educate people

about the scam. [00:08:46] HOST: But on a very basic level, that's a little bit of a subterfuge or almost like glorified pickpocketing, but it's smoke and mirrors. It's what

you do in any scam. You're kind of making people think about the opposite of what you're actually doing? [00:08:59] Frank Abagnale: Right, and let talk about the pickpocket scam,

because... [00:09:02] HOST: Yes, let's do. [00:09:02] Frank Abagnale: The pickpocket scam has gotten a lot more sophisticated than the old pickpocket guy back in the '40s and

'50s. So, what happens here is you're in New York City and probably IU would say that the best pickpockets in the world are in Grand Central Terminal in New York City. They've

been doing it for years, that's how they make a living doing it. Well, it used to be, they used to pick your pocket and then take your money out of your wallet, and a lot of times just

throw everything else away including the credit cards. They don't want anything to trace back to them. They're looking for cash. Now what they do is they pick your pocket, they go

through it, and they see a business card or you know some people say, have a little card in there, "If lost" and it has their name and address and contact... [00:09:42] HOST: And

people don't have cash as much anymore. [00:09:42] Frank Abagnale: Right. [00:09:43] HOST: So, what they do is they immediately call your home, and your wife answers and they go,

"Yes, ma'am, my name is Robert Johnson. I was in the Grand Central Terminal this morning, and I found a wallet on the ground, and I picked it up, and it had about $150 cash in it,

but also a VISA, MasterCard, American Express, but I noticed that there was a card in here with the phone number of the person's home. So I'm calling you to tell you that I found

the wallet." "Oh, my God. My husband's in New York today, he lost his wallet, he's probably not even aware of it." "Well, listen, I've had this happen to

me before, so here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to walk across the street to the post office, and I will mail this to your right now Priority Mail." "Oh, that

is so kind of you." "Not a problem, I'm happy to do it." In the meantime, she calls her husband and says, "Hey, you lost..." "Yes, I just realized it. I

called the credit card companies, cancel all my cards." "No, no, the man has found your wallet, he's already dropped it in the mail, he's sending it back Priority

Mail." "Oh great." [00:10:41] HOST: Don't cancel anything. [00:10:42] Frank Abagnale: When then he's able to go use all the credit cards and everything, they

weren't cancelled and everybody falls for that. They fall for that because no one wants to call and cancel all their credit cards. [00:10:52] HOST: Wow. Alright, so don't...

[00:10:56] Frank Abagnale: So the thing is, do not believe that call, you immediately go and cancel your cards. It doesn't cost anything to cancel them. You cancel them, even if it may

turn out they sent it back temporarily. [00:11:07] HOST: You can temporarily cancel them, right? [00:11:08] Frank Abagnale: Yeah, much better to be safer. [00:11:09] HOST: Alright. I lost my

credit, my wallet actually on a vacation, and my, my poor mom ended up getting a call about some warrant or arrest for my, under my name, or something. I'm not sure what they were,

what the scam as, and she left this sort of worried message for me. I said, no, everything's alright, but and I ended up getting a call from the local police department and they had my

wallet, so somehow, I think along the way they got it in somebody's hands who wanted to try to scam me or my mom and ended up getting the police department. So I'm not quite sure

what path it took there, but alright, Frank, really interesting stories, and I'm sure there's more scams you could share with us. Ones we've never thought of. Alright, so up

next, we are going to check in with the AARP Fraud Watch Network Team. We're going to hear all about how the AARP can help you, if you think you've been scammed or if you have been

scammed, and what they're doing to protect people. (MUSIC SEGUE) [00:12:10] HOST: Alright, I'd like to welcome Kristen Keckeisen. She is the campaign director for the AARP Fraud

Watch Network. Kristen, thanks for being here. [00:12:16] Kristen Keckeisen: Thank you for having me. [00:12:17] HOST: It's a scary world out there, and the Fraud Watch Network is here

to help. There's a bunch of components, but the main ones are the hotline, right, and also the Fraud Watch Network, the map. [00:12:25] Kristen Keckeisen: We have the Fraud Watch

Network Helpline, yes, where people can call if they, if they think they've spotted a scam, if they, you know, if they've actually experienced a scam, if they've actually been

defrauded, they can call our 800 number and talk to, to real live volunteers who can help them figure out what to do and you know what, what's the next step they need to take.

[00:12:47] HOST: And the map is really, you go on, on the site, what's the site that we can lead people to is... [00:12:51] Kristen Keckeisen: It's AARP.org/fraudwatchnetwork.

[00:12:56] HOST: That's easy, and as I look at it, I haven't focused in on any part of the country, but the entire country is an exclamation mark of frauds, and it's kind of

frightening, I mean... [00:13:04] Kristen Keckeisen: It, it's very frightening, it's very frightening. There are a lot of scammers out there and they all have one goal, to separate

you from your money. Our scam tracking map is a great way to see what's happening across the country, but also, what's happening in your own neighborhood. [00:13:23] HOST: Let me

ask you this, this may be a hard thing to track, but if someone has been a victim of a scam or a fraud, is there a sense that they're then more vulnerable, they're on some list or

something, hackers got them out there. [00:13:34] Kristen Keckeisen: You've got it. Yes, once, once a person has been victimized once, they are then on what scammers call a sucker list.

And they, those lists are bought and sold on the dark web or, you know, on the, basically on, on the, the black market between scammers and you know, if a person has been victimized once

for, for a number of reasons, they're more likely to be, to be victimized again. And, you know, our research has told us time and time again, that if people have experienced negative

life experiences, they are, are more likely to be defrauded. If they are having financial troubles, or if they're deeply in debt, if they've suffered the loss of a loved one, if

they, you know, have lost a job, they're, they're more likely to, to be the victim of a scam. You know perhaps because they're feeling more desperate, you know and

they're, they're looking for that good thing that, that's going to happen to them, and along comes a scammer who, you know, dangles in front of them, you know riches, wealth

you know, easy money, you know they're more likely to, to take them up on it because they're more in need. [00:14:40] HOST: Well, a lot of times it's, it's riches or

wealth or easy money, and then a lot of times it's just pure old threats and people, I'm looking at one right now on the scam map, from out in the middle of the country and, and

it's talking about the IRS, saying they're going to file a lawsuit against someone. [00:14:54] Kristen Keckeisen: All of these things that scammers do are intended to get you into

a state that they will call under the ether. [00:15:01] HOST: Will Johnson: Under the ether. This is an actual term. [00:15:03] Kristen Keckeisen: Under the ether. This is an actual term

that, that fraudsters have used. They have you in a emotional state that makes logic go out the window. When you start to get in that state, you need, that's the time to back off, take

a few steps back, calm down, and say, I need to think about this. Let me call you tomorrow. [00:15:24] HOST: Tell us about some scams that people are seeing a lot, or getting a lot of calls

about. [00:15:27] Kristen Keckeisen: Well there's a, there's a, actually a fairly new scam out there right now, for people who are Medicare age. People may or may not know that

Medicard... Medicare is going to be replacing your old Medicare cards. Currently your Medicare card has your social security number on it. And what's going on right now is that

they're calling people up, they're you know they're, they're telling them, hey, your Medicare card's going to be replaced, it's not going to have the social

security number on it anymore, and for just you know $200, we can expedite the replacement of your card so you won't be you know vulnerable to this kind of fraud anymore and people are

saying, well, okay, you know if that's, if that's what hap--, what's happening, I need to do that. But, in fact, that is not the case. If you are a Medicare beneficiary,

you're start--, your card will be replaced automatically, and they'll be phased in over time, there's nothing you can do to make it come faster and there's, there's

nobody out there who wants money to replace your card. And we also are getting ready to launch an initiative to warn people about ancestry websites on Facebook as well. There's a lot of

them out there some of them are legitimate, others are not, and they ask you for a lot of personal information, you know which seems logical because right, you're trying to help people

find their, you know, their relatives, their ancestors and so on. So they, you know, they ask for a lot of personal information that, you know that, that scammers can use to steal your

identity. [00:16:59] HOST: Alright, so Kristen, if people want to do go the website, look at the map, or call, where do they need to go? And again, this is for, this is important for

somebody who maybe has been the victim of a scam or maybe your mom or dad, or maybe your grandparents, people of all ages can go here and see what's going on. [00:17:15] Kristen

Keckeisen: Go to AARP.org/fraudwatchnetwork. Tons of great resources there, and if you, if you think you've been a victim of a scam, you know or if you, if you've just spotted

something and you're really not sure whether it's a scam and you want to talk to somebody about it, please call our helpline, call the Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360.

[00:17:42] HOST: Alright. Kristen Keckeisen is Campaign Director for The AARP Fraud Watch Network. Thanks a lot for talking to us. [00:17:48] Kristen Keckeisen: Thank you. [00:17:52] HOST:

Alright, we'd like to welcome Amy Nofziger, AARP Fraud Expert to the podcast. Amy, how's it going? [00:17:58] Amy Nofziger: I'm great, how are you? [00:17:59] HOST: I'm

good. So can we reveal where you are, where the call center is? We're going to tell people all about what you do and how you help people avoid and then report fraud. [00:18:07] Amy

Nofziger: Certainly. So I am actually located in Denver, and that is where one of our volunteer managed call centers is. We also have one in Seattle, Washington. Anybody that has any concern

about frauds or scams happening in their, their lives, or family's lives, or friend's life can call us. We have trained volunteers who answer the phone lines and again, both of

our Denver and Seattle offices, and they are there to guide you and listen to you and to be that trusted voice on the other end of the line. So even if you haven't lost money, but

let's say you've just got a really suspicious phone call and you're a little nervous about it, and you might think it's a scam, certainly call us and report it to us,

because that's actually how we find out about a lot of our scams or from the people in the community. Any time you have any suspicion, just call us and we can help you through it.

[00:18:53] HOST: Amy, I hear you've been doing this a while, right? [00:18:56] Amy Nofziger: About 15 years, a while. [00:18:59] HOST: So I'm going to put you on the spot here with

a few questions. What's the weirdest call you’ve gotten for, for a type of scam or fraud? Weirdest scam? [00:19:07] Amy Nofziger: Well, we always say to our volunteers, you never know

what's going to happen when you pick up the other end of that line, so we have gotten complaints about, and I'm not even joking, we've gotten complaints about their bagel was

too small, but we certainly treat that like anything else and help them understand how to work with a business with a complaint, but you know, there's just, the scammers are always

thinking of stuff, and they're very creative and they're very nimble. So, sometimes I even have to scratch my head and go, okay, what are they, what's their motivation behind

this because I feel like I've heard it all. Everything weird is out there. [00:19:43] HOST: Well I like the, I like the small bagel complaint. That seems legit to me. As you look back

over 10 years or so, how have things changed? Certainly we've got a lot more technology out there. [00:19:54] Amy Nofziger: Yeah, technology has certainly made things change. I will

say, one of the things that we are certainly dealing with right now are the robo dials that come from like a voice operating system or a predictive dialer where your phone rings, you see the

phone number, it has a city and state on it, but that is not where the physical location of that person is calling you from. The number bounces around and they could be out of the country,

and for a lot of people who didn't grow up with that technology, there is still that misconception or that myth that law enforcement can trace that phone number back to a physical

address and get those bad guys, but we certainly know that that is not true, and so just helping people understand how technology is great, but it also can be used to the scammer's

advantage and just how to learn how to teach themselves and learn on their phone. Maybe you don't pick it up if you don't recognize the number, or if you keep getting a number from

a scammer, you block that number. [00:20:49] HOST: As far as who's getting scammed the most, is that a pretty difficult thing to pinpoint? I assume it's all ages, all walks of

life. [00:20:56] Amy Nofziger: Yeah, everyone, everyone has a vulnerability or a trigger to be scammed, it doesn't matter who you are, what your education level is, I always say, you

need to know what your vulnerabilities are, and they do change, so right, if you're looking for a job, you're vulnerable to a work at home scam or something like that. If

you're, like, for myself, I'm a mother, I would have a vulnerability with a virtual kidnapping scam. I mean so, again, know your vulnerabilities and know the red flags of them, and

that's how you're going to protect yourself. [00:21:26] HOST: Tell us about the virtual kidnapping scam. That sounds insidious and awful and we need, we need to know about it.

[00:21:30] Amy Nofziger: It is, it is, absolutely is. Yeah, so you'll get a, a phone call or an email saying that one of your loved ones has been kidnapped. And they are holding them

for ransom and that you need to go right away to wire money. It's very similar in the threads of the grandparent scam, of, you know, you are, this is your grandchild calling, and they

are being held at the jail because they were arrested in a foreign country and you need to go wire money or send a prepaid gift card to them to release this person. So, again what they do is

they get you under that, what we call emotional ether, and so they get you scared, your heartrate starts going, and you're really not thinking cognitively, you're thinking

emotionally, because at that moment, the only thing that's on your mind is getting that person safe. [00:22:16] HOST: Yeah, you know, you mentioned going to get a, a money card or

something like that. We've talked to some scam victims who have been you know, directed to obviously this is a relatively common thing, but directed to a local pharmacy or a store where

they can go to a money machine and it almost sounds like when they're telling the story, that the person is like standing there in the store and watching them, like turn right, and

there's a cash machine right there or something like that. [00:22:37] Amy Nofziger: Well, a lot of times, and I just recently heard this last week, a lot of the victims, they'll

keep them on the phone. I even heard that this scammer was on the phone for 24 hours with this victim, so, they're pretty much brainwashing them and keeping them under that ether at all

times so they can control them. But you're exactly right, they, they know how to use technology to even look at these stores, right to look at the stores, to know where the entrance

is, to even know what the victim's houses look like so it makes it seem more legitimate. [00:23:07] HOST: 24 hours, that's, that a dedicated persistent scammer, but it gives you,

it gives you an idea of how, of how much, the lengths they will go to to get what they want. [00:23:16] Amy Nofziger: Absolutely. And oftentimes they work in teams, so you know, it might not

have been them the whole time, and people will say, well gosh, well that's a lot of effort, and I'm like, yeah, but they got $5,000 from the victim. Right, $5,000 in 24 hours of

work? I mean that's not, that's not bad, so but they don't really have anything else to do, so they will invest that time and the energy. [00:23:37] HOST: Other than calling

the number we're talking about here, going to the right authorities, and, and discussing something, is it, I'm guessing I know the answer to this question, is it ever a wise idea

to engage a scammer in a feeling that you might be able to turn the tables on them or something like that? [00:23:54] Amy Nofziger: No I, again, I have talked to so many people and I have

heard so many stories about how, you know they'll, they'll, they'll egg the scammer on and they'll them what a bad person they are, or they'll blow a whistle in the

phone, or they'll leave the phone down. Hang up the phone. Hang up the phone, hang up the phone, delete the email, and hang up the phone. I don't know how many times I can say that

because one, you're giving them an in. You're giving them an in to your life, regardless of your blowing a whistle, you're giving them an in and again, these are good,

trained scammers. I've read studies about how scammers will study how to scam people, and they'll read books on persuasion tactics. It's done. They know how to manipulate

people and they know how to get it in. So just hang up the phone, do not engage, and then really report it. [00:24:43] HOST: Right, Amy, tell us the number to call again, and any last advice

you have for people who are worried about or need to think about calling about a scam or fraud. [00:24:53] Amy Nofziger: Yeah, the number if 877-908-3360. [00:25:01] HOST: Amy, it's

been really great and helpful talking to you. We're going to let you go, but thanks so much and, and we appreciate your time. [00:25:07] Amy Nofziger: Thank you so much. [00:25:09]

HOST: Amy Nofziger is Fraud Expert for the AARP. [00:25:13] HOST: For more information and resources on how to protect yourself from scam artists, visit AARP.org. [00:25:23] HOST: Alright,

I'd like to thank our producers, Julie Getz and Brook Ellis; our audio engineer, Julio Gonzales, and of course, my cohost, Frank Abagnale. And be sure to subscribe, download, rate, and

of course, like our podcast on Apple Podcast or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. _END OF TRANSCRIPT_